Still none the wiser, the std LR battery and the typical leisure caravan battery are Not AGM I take it
"I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you read is not what I meant"
They claim to be both deep cycle and engine start - I thought they where made differently ?
"I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you read is not what I meant"
21st Oct 2008 11:19 pm
drivesafe
Member Since: 23 Feb 2006
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Posts: 867
Hi again shiny, both the LR battery and the Elecsol are conventional batteries, just maintenance free versions.
You need to get full specs on any battery to see exactly what it can take but USUALLY, the specs from one brand of maintenance free battery will work for any other brand of maintenance free battery.
This is NOT the case with AGM batteries, each brand and version of that brand’s AGM batteries will most likely have different specs to any other brand of AGM and the specs can be very misleading if you don’t know what you are looking at.
It’s a case of buyer beware with AGMs as most AGM batteries were originally designed to be used in the communications industry or RAPS set ups and are not always that well suited to 4x4 use.2008 TDV8 RR Lux + 2009 D4 2.7
22nd Oct 2008 1:10 am
norto
Member Since: 10 Apr 2006
Location: batemans bay
Posts: 1605
Drivesafe
Are the optima batteries "AGM"Pete
22nd Oct 2008 6:16 am
colinm
Member Since: 06 Oct 2008
Location: Derbyshire
Posts: 47
My experience with AGM batteries has so far been excellent - including the very cheap ones made by 'Haze'. We have used them in starting and deep discharge applications and they stand up remarkably well. However, I would not be inclined to fit them to a D3 as the specs I have seen (Varta, Bosch and Haze) suggest charge voltages as high as 15.5v (except at very low temperatures) would be outside there acceptable range. They do fast charge and have very high charging efficiencies but 14.7v at around 25C is all they need.
The Optima batteries have aspects of the AGM construction but the plate shape is special as is the plate alloy and electrolyte chemistry so they are a bit of a oddball case that on the face of it will be OK with 15.5v charging (within certain bounds of temperature and charge state)
Edited to add that if you simply want to use a leisure battery as a separate supply for camping lights or whatever it would be fairly easy to rig up a circuit that charged this battery to a limit of say 14.7v while the vehicle was running but inhibit charging once the main battery voltage fell below say 14.4v so as to prevent the main battery being run down accidentally.
22nd Oct 2008 1:16 pm
TallPaul
Member Since: 03 Jan 2008
Location: Near Reading
Posts: 1214
shiny moose - think of it this way.
When buying tools, you consider either the draper from machine mart, or a brand name at perhaps 3 times the price that you know will be built better, but essentially does the same job. If you use something once in a blue moon, I am sure you buy the cheap but functional option. If you use something daily, then its worth considering the more expensive option that's a bit over engineered.
Optima Yellow top = Expensive but over-engineered option that you can abuse daily
Standard deep cycle = draper option, does the job, but not quite as well built
Does that make more sense?
I have an optima, as my avatar suggests, must change that I only stuck it on one day when I was actually working on the split charge. This was basically as it drops straight in, and I knew that they last very very well. They also do not spill if you turn them upside down, which I like.
I am sure that a traditional leisure battery will do the same job for cheaper, but not be as robust or last as long. I had a split charge system for many years with a Halfords leisure battery. When I was done some 5 years later with the car, I ditched the battery as its life was more or less over. A friend with an optima moved his between several cars and its still going strong! (still not forgiven him for saying it was for sale cheap just after I joined the group buy!).
Anyway, you pays your money, you get what you pays for...
From that point of view TP it make sense, effectively as long as it's not miss treated or over used it's a battery for life.
"I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you read is not what I meant"
22nd Oct 2008 9:53 pm
colinm
Member Since: 06 Oct 2008
Location: Derbyshire
Posts: 47
As with other lead-acid batteries don't leave it half discharged in the back of the garage for months while its not needed. Optima do warn about the danger of the battery becoming sulphated if left like this for prolonged periods. In this respect it is probably not very different to other lead-acid battery constructions.
The plan would be to leave it insitu under the bonnet, so it's more likely to just keep getting toped up.
Split charge system has now arrived from Oz so that going in first.
"I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you read is not what I meant"
22nd Oct 2008 11:12 pm
Popelka
Member Since: 31 May 2008
Location: Praha (Prague)
Posts: 2430
so whats the difference between the RED, YELLOW or BLUE top Optim's Experience is a difficult teacher, because she gives the test first and then the lesson afterwards!!!!
22nd Oct 2008 11:23 pm
drivesafe
Member Since: 23 Feb 2006
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Posts: 867
Hi again shiny, Optima batteries are genuine AGM batteries and are one of only a few AGM batteries specifically made for automotive use, furthermore Optima batteries, because of their hi tech design and construction not only can be used as a direct replacement for a convectional automotive battery in all automotive applications, but they will stand-up to the same punishment and more that a standard battery will take.
While most other AGM batteries are really only a simplified version of a genuine AGM and will work in most automotive use, personally, I prefer convectional batteries when installed in an engine bay. They just take the harsh conditions much better.
The problem with the D3 is the confined space available in the auxiliary battery compartment means you either have to do some modifications to fit a conventional battery or just pay the extra and get the Optima.
Whether you fit a conventional battery or an Optima, you will get basically the same usage, but the Optima will have a much longer operating life ( which you pay for in the first place ).2008 TDV8 RR Lux + 2009 D4 2.7
23rd Oct 2008 9:17 am
colinm
Member Since: 06 Oct 2008
Location: Derbyshire
Posts: 47
Quote:
so whats the difference between the RED, YELLOW or BLUE top Optim's
Well, the blue tops are for marine applications - do you go in for deep wading?
Just to be confusing there are two specs within the blue range, one for 'starting' and one for 'starting and deep discharge'. Strangely this is very similar to the distinction between the red top (starting) and yellow top (starting and semi-traction???) so one has to wonder how much of all this is driven by smart marketing - are there just two constructions but they found the marine market likes to feel special?
23rd Oct 2008 9:18 am
TallPaul
Member Since: 03 Jan 2008
Location: Near Reading
Posts: 1214
There are very different requirements between starting (large current, short periods, then charge) and lesuire (lower drain currents, deep discharge, then charge).
In lead acid terms, the actual physical construction of the plates in the battery is different for the two applications, I believe the plates are thicker in a starting battery for example.
The same applies to the optima's, they are designed for different applications.
If you are going to deep discharge then yellow top is what you want. If you want maximum cranking power (CCA - Cold Cranking Amps) then red is best, and the blue are a mix of the two requirements.
I have seen people use yellow tops as their primary battery, or red tops as their secondary, they are good batteries all round but the best performance in a certain application comes from using the battery designed for that application.
Also, in some countries Optima do not import all of the possible types available, so sometimes you have to compromise.
23rd Oct 2008 10:17 am
colinm
Member Since: 06 Oct 2008
Location: Derbyshire
Posts: 47
Quote:
I believe the plates are thicker in a starting battery for example.
The starting battery usually has a larger number of thinner plates relative to the equivalent capacity deep discharge battery as for starting a high surface area is needed to minimise the internal resistance and minimise voltage drop under high load currents.
Last edited by colinm on 23rd Oct 2008 1:50 pm. Edited 1 time in total
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