Member Since: 25 May 2020
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 61
CAN BUS, IID, TCCM and more.. Advice and Guidance needed
Hi all.. I have a 2008 Disco3 (57 Plate) and I most definitely have a CAN BUS issue. The car has full service history but a year and a half ago it went into a garage for a suspension issue. After this, long story short it got left stood for 18 months.
In this time I think the battery got stolen and at some point rodents made a nest in the battery compartment (I found droppings in that area). I also saw one section of wiring near to the headlight that had been gnawed at.
Currently the car starts sometimes and doesn't most times. It has had a new battery from Tanya (a Varta) which I charged up using my trickle charger (Optimate).
The TCCM was fried, so I bought a replacement however the IID fails to 'calibrate'/'configure' it as there is a problem with the CAN BUS - it basically doesn't see any ECU on that network which leads me to believe that most likely it's going to be the CAN wire pair which has been chewed in one or more places.. not sure where or how to start diagnosing that.
Things I have tried:
* Hard reset
* New Battery
* Scanning and clearing codes (the remaining ones I have included below)
* Replaced the TCCM with one from a 2008 Disco 3
Things left yet to check:
* Grounding points under the wheel arches.
* I have seen threads about the Instrument Cluster and sending off to Patrick for repair.
Other issues:
* Car mostly will not start
* Suspension fault showing on the dash
* Parking brake fault showing on the dash
* Rev counter not working
* Temp gauge showing as at the very top/max
* Hazards going off as soon as you put the key in the ignition.
I know that there are diagrams that are available that not only show you the CAN network/wiring layout, but also where in the car the relevant connectors are located. Can anyone point me to them? I have tried searching the Forum for 'topology' and 'CANBUS' and looked at the resultant threads.
Grateful to all and anyone that can offer advice.
thanks
onetwentie.
======================
Model L319 - Discovery 3 2008
Vehicle scanned on 17 May 2023 19:00:16
IIDControl 4.1.3 Build 130 Android - IIDTool BT V4.0 B2691
Body Control
B1A93-93 - Invalid roof position - Component failure - no operation (2F)
( on 06-09-2023 03:02:53 at 287050 km )
B1D06-15 - Left turn signal circuit - General electrical failure - circuit short to battery or open (2F)
( on 06-09-2023 03:02:53 at 287050 km )
Instrument Pack
U0001-87 - High speed CAN communication bus - Bus signal/message failure - missing a message (2F)
( on 16-04-2037 03:40:57 at 287054 km )
Steering Angle
U0122-87 - Lost communication with vehicle dynamics control module - Bus signal/message failure - missing a message (2F)
( on 06-09-2023 02:59:27 at 287054 km )
18th May 2023 11:57 am
loanrangie
Member Since: 18 Jun 2017
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 600
Check the harness connectors that sit on the chassis near the left rear wheel, these are known to corrode or frey and cause can bus errors.
Check the plugs and wiring either side about 10cm or so.
19th May 2023 2:26 am
onetwentie
Member Since: 25 May 2020
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 61
Hi Loanrangie
when you say
Check the harness connectors that sit on the chassis near the left rear wheel do you mean the ones that connect up to the air compressor or other ones further back towards the rear wheel? Is it a case of jack the car up +axel stands to be able to see them?
19th May 2023 9:30 am
loanrangie
Member Since: 18 Jun 2017
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 600
Further back literally right behind the wheel on the chassis.
19th May 2023 9:45 am
Martin Site Admin and Owner
Member Since: 06 Nov 2004
Location: Hook Norton
Posts: 18452
I think you're only seeing a small subset of modules via the IID, suggesting a CAN bus break or short.
Do you have a multimeter?
First thing to check is the integrity of the CAN buses by trying to measure the resistance across the CAN pairs at the OBD port.
Check resistance between pins 6 and 14 (high speed CAN), and then between 3 and 11 (medium speed CAN). Both should be around 60 Ohms.
You said it went in for suspension issues, did it perhaps have the suspension ECU removed or unplugged?
From the wiring diagrams for the CAN bus, have a look at page 2:
You can see the OBD port towards the top left, and the modules that the IID can see, the instrument cluster and the steering angle sensor.
Everything else on the bus appears to be 'missing', and they are all 'downstream' of the C0469/C0467R connector pair (this is the middle set at the bottom of the Right Hand A post) - but it's the fact the CAN bus goes in and out of the suspension ECU [C0867R] which could be relevant. If the ECU is disconnected or missing then the CAN bus is broken at this point.
It could also be the loop to the EPB ECU (C2178) which is also in and out, via connector pair C0376/C0390 which is on top of the LH chassis rail at the back near the spare wheel well. However if it was that far along the bus I would expect to be seeing the suspension ECU in the IID fault list.
Try the above first and let us know 06 D3 SE / 15 LR D90 XS SW / 88 LR 90 Td5 / 68 BMW 2000 ti
Any issues with the site let me know!
19th May 2023 9:49 am
onetwentie
Member Since: 25 May 2020
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 61
loanrangie wrote:
Further back literally right behind the wheel on the chassis.
Thanks for that confirmation. Will have to get the trolley jack and the axel stands out. Will be sure to remove the fuse for the air compressor beforehand!
19th May 2023 10:12 am
onetwentie
Member Since: 25 May 2020
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 61
Hey Martin - pleased to meet you! I have added some inline answers in bold to make it easier to read
Martin wrote:
I think you're only seeing a small subset of modules via the IID, suggesting a CAN bus break or short. Agreed
Do you have a multimeter? Yup - will have to brush up on how to use it, but I think I know how to measure resistance and voltage, which I think is all I will need for this problem
First thing to check is the integrity of the CAN buses by trying to measure the resistance across the CAN pairs at the OBD port. Yes I read up on this last night on a very good thread where the OP had a similar issue, 8 page thread with lots of useful info! link https://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/topic188138.html so will definitely be doing what you suggested and will report back the results.
Check resistance between pins 6 and 14 (high speed CAN), and then between 3 and 11 (medium speed CAN). Both should be around 60 Ohms.
You said it went in for suspension issues, did it perhaps have the suspension ECU removed or unplugged?Good point, and I was thinking that too - I did unplug the two connectors by the compressor, spray them with contact cleaner, and reconnect them. I did this since the cover for the compressor had been left off and so those connectors were possibly left exposed under the car for 18 months!
From the wiring diagrams for the CAN bus, have a look at page 2:
You can see the OBD port towards the top left, and the modules that the IID can see, the instrument cluster and the steering angle sensor.
Everything else on the bus appears to be 'missing', and they are all 'downstream' of the C0469/C0467R connector pair (this is the middle set at the bottom of the Right Hand A post) - but it's the fact the CAN bus goes in and out of the suspension ECU [C0867R] which could be relevant. If the ECU is disconnected or missing then the CAN bus is broken at this point. Brilliant! I wonder if this would also explain why, when I tried to calibrate the replacement TCCM, it failed - probably because it couldn't communicate on the CAN bus?
PS - This is my first time studying diagrams like these, but I can deffo see the worth in doing so!! I do have a question though, is there a separate reference document to know where to find on the car, these connectors and ECUs?
It could also be the loop to the EPB ECU (C2178) which is also in and out, via connector pair C0376/C0390 which is on top of the LH chassis rail at the back near the spare wheel well. However if it was that far along the bus I would expect to be seeing the suspension ECU in the IID fault list. and this is another correlation I made too, with the results of the scan from the IID tool
Try the above first and let us know
19th May 2023 10:53 am
Martin Site Admin and Owner
Member Since: 06 Nov 2004
Location: Hook Norton
Posts: 18452
There's no D3 connector location reference doc that I know of, there is a D4 one though which will be similar
However this is LHD (some connector suffixes "L"), so those connectors will be in the mirror image location on RHD.
For example, the suspension ECU is C0867R (RHD) or C0867L (LHD) - same IDs on D3 and D4. The LHD one is on the LH A post, RHD on RH A post (side of the front footwell).
So be aware that looking at the LHD documents can have you searching the wrong side of the car, so take care if looking for connectors suffixed "R" and "L".06 D3 SE / 15 LR D90 XS SW / 88 LR 90 Td5 / 68 BMW 2000 ti
Any issues with the site let me know!
19th May 2023 11:30 am
Sidestick
Member Since: 22 Apr 2012
Location: Rome
Posts: 2288
Martin wrote:
but it's the fact the CAN bus goes in and out of the suspension ECU [C0867R] which could be relevant. If the ECU is disconnected or missing then the CAN bus is broken at this point.
Hi Martin, i do not agree with your point of view,
i recently faced a similar problem on a 2008 LHD Disco3 and the High Speed Can Bus to the Suspension Module has only one pair of twisted wires (Yellow & Black-Yellow on pin 16 & 19) connected to it... it is not a CAN through as reported on the wiring diagram (pin 17 & 18 are empty and i don't know why).
Click image to enlarge
In any case, the car starts and drive also with the entire suspension ECU disconnected from all 4 plugs...
Click image to enlarge
- Easy-Lift suspension module 4.0
- GoodWinch 9500 lb
- Full underbody protections
- Tree/Rock sidebars
- Prospeed roofrack & ladder
- Compressor guard
- Raised Air Intake
- Driving lights (2+4)
- 50 mm Waffle boards
- Altox Heater control
- Overland Rooftop Tent
- Rear seats entertainment
- Front & Rear camera
- GVIF
- Removable tow bar
- Cubby box fridge
- BFG KO2 265/65R17
- iidTool BT
Last edited by Sidestick on 19th May 2023 7:18 pm. Edited 1 time in total
19th May 2023 5:15 pm
Martin Site Admin and Owner
Member Since: 06 Nov 2004
Location: Hook Norton
Posts: 18452
Sidestick, you're right
LR must have changed this during production. The 2005 diagrams I have show the HS CAN going in and out of the suspension module on two pins, the 2009 diagrams have a splice before the suspension module and just a single pin used on C0867L/R.
onetwentie's D3 is a 2008 so likely the later setup, so a missing suspension module couldn't cause the problem 06 D3 SE / 15 LR D90 XS SW / 88 LR 90 Td5 / 68 BMW 2000 ti
Any issues with the site let me know!
19th May 2023 6:56 pm
onetwentie
Member Since: 25 May 2020
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 61
Morning all
So after work yesterday I got the multimeter out and went to test the pins on the OBDII port.. this is what I found:
So the battery is a little low now hence the 11.6 but not sure if that impacts the validity of the test - I assume not.
I looked in the junction box behind the right hand side A pillar, but could not find the correct wire for the HCAN high or low?
Next I checked all the fuses in the engine compartment with the continuity beep test, and they all seemed ok.
Do I go for the NSR chassis area next? or should I remove the instrument cluster and check for 60 ohms resistance behind the connector there?
thanks all.
20th May 2023 2:46 am
Motolab
Member Since: 18 Oct 2019
Location: Sleen
Posts: 1815
I could not resist..
Quote:
So the battery is a little low now hence the 11.6
A 12v battery is 100% EMPTY at 12V and full at 12,7V
So a “ little low” is 12,3 V for instance…
11,6v is DEEP charge…. And will finish a battery within hours…
Charge it immediatelyBest regards
Harold
Always looking for Pre '55's & Pre war British Motorcycles! knowing or having one for sale? PM please. I visit the UK 6 times a year
Ps. I edit my texts quite often, english is not my native language, so I will edit My “typo’s” etc.
20th May 2023 9:18 am
onetwentie
Member Since: 25 May 2020
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 61
Motolab thanks for the input. I will get it charged.
Interestingly it's a brand new battery that was charged up to 13v but has slowly come back down to this voltage as the battery has been sat in the car.
Could there be a parasitic drain on it? Or is it normal from just opening the doors and having them open for it to drop to 11v?
Also is it okay to charge it via jump leads and another car or should I be using a trickle charger instead?
20th May 2023 9:48 am
gstuart
Member Since: 21 Oct 2016
Location: kent
Posts: 13635
Martin wrote:
Sidestick, you're right
LR must have changed this during production. The 2005 diagrams I have show the HS CAN going in and out of the suspension module on two pins, the 2009 diagrams have a splice before the suspension module and just a single pin used on C0867L/R.
onetwentie's D3 is a 2008 so likely the later setup, so a missing suspension module couldn't cause the problem
Hiya
Hope u don’t mind me asking but did they also move the 3 x connectors on post 2007 from behind the passenger side wheel arch liner to behind the near side headlight plse
Many thks as always
20th May 2023 9:52 am
gstuart
Member Since: 21 Oct 2016
Location: kent
Posts: 13635
Ref the B1A93-93 error , wonder if that’s due to the sunroof requirement of recalibration, but as mentioned battery needs to be fully charged
Here’s the procedure kindly noted from woody
Under some circumstances (i.e. if the battery is
disconnected), the sunroof position may need
to be recalibrated. The sunroof position is
recalibrated as follows:
1. With the battery connected, turn the starter
switch to position ll.
2. Press and hold the front of the switch for
20 seconds. The sunroof will start to
move.
Continue to hold the switch until the
sunroof completes one full open and
closing cycle. When the sunroof stops
moving, release the switch.
The sunroof can then be operated as normal.
Note: Calibration will not function if the battery
voltage is low.
Ref interior bulbs , many of us have replaced ours with leds
Plus posted some images over here , talking of mice etc have u checked behind the engine bays fuse box where the loom goes to the passenger fuse box, just a thought in case there’s some broken wires
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(I found droppings in that area). I also saw one section of wiring near to the headlight that had been gnawed at.
