Member Since: 03 Nov 2007
Location: Glorious Devon
Posts: 3254
Flat Battery Help - Now Sorted With New Battery
See last post:
Bill Wright Never take life too seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
D4 SDV6 SE Tech Kaikoura Stone MY15.
Last edited by Bill Wright on 8th Nov 2013 2:17 pm. Edited 2 times in total
6th Aug 2013 3:43 pm
Nick H
Member Since: 25 Feb 2013
Location: Southampton
Posts: 659
6th Aug 2013 9:26 pm
stick
Member Since: 13 Jan 2010
Location: hants
Posts: 592
What was the story?
Wondering whether to replace battery before winter as have heard stories of 3yr old batteries failing.d4 HSE
19th Aug 2013 1:20 pm
Bill Wright
Member Since: 03 Nov 2007
Location: Glorious Devon
Posts: 3254
Thanks for asking Stick
I thought that the problem had gone away but no.
The history is that on the day of the original post, i had left the car with tail gate open as I had my dogs on board and I was working near the car. Total time, just over three hours. Result was flat battery but I stuck it on charge overnight and it was fine.
Now, so me two weeks later, it had happened again after leaving the tailgate open for about two hours. I'm assuming that it is the lights that are causing the drain.
As a precaution, I took it to a battery tester today and they tested it (FOC ) and told me that there is no problem with the battery. Now here is where I am confused. They said that the battery needs to be removed from the car to be completely re-charged as the alternator will only half charge it during engine running time. They insisted that the battery had to be removed (not just disconnected) as otherwise I'd be charging the whole car. I listened to this statement with a straight face and thanking them politely, I left . (I could see that it was going to kick off so I got out of there fast! )
Part of their explanation may be correct in that the alternator may not completely charge the battery but I would have thought that in that case, the battery would eventually go flat when in normal use.
Can anyone give me a heads up on possible remedies for this problem please? I could go to the dealer (40 miles away) but I'd have to book it in and etc. Maybe self help is called for.
Bill WrightNever take life too seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
D4 SDV6 SE Tech Kaikoura Stone MY15.
Last edited by Bill Wright on 19th Aug 2013 4:33 pm. Edited 1 time in total
19th Aug 2013 2:24 pm
Martin Site Admin and Owner
Member Since: 06 Nov 2004
Location: Hook Norton
Posts: 18457
I understand that part of the battery management strategy (to control emissions over the mandated cycle) is to only charge the battery to something like 80%.
I wonder if the CCF items to disable off the BMS does away with this nonsense? I think Wiggs has done this...06 D3 SE / 15 LR D90 XS SW / 88 LR 90 Td5 / 68 BMW 2000 ti
Any issues with the site let me know!
19th Aug 2013 2:45 pm
stick
Member Since: 13 Jan 2010
Location: hants
Posts: 592
Bill, top tip must be switch the interior lights off! Just press and hold the button for 3 seconds. I leave mine off from April to October because the doors are open so much - camping, picnics, loading, unloading etc.
As for the problem you now have, I don't know the answer, but if you search on here, there are plenty of people who have had recurrent battery problems. For some, but by no means all, a new battery did sort it. Could the battery be permanently weakened by having been drained?
(P.S - very interested in the idea that disconnecting the battery is not enough - you have to remove it from the car. Have they invented a new electricity storage device? Rename the D4 a capacitor?)d4 HSE
19th Aug 2013 4:20 pm
epninety
Member Since: 12 Oct 2012
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 327
As part of a job for a customer a couple of years ago, I built an automated battery testing rig to look at the performance of some car batteries, used for running remote radio sites.
As part of setting up the rig, I took the Optima batteries out of my other Land Rover and ran them through the discharge test. (Optimas are AGM batteries, similar to, but not the same as, the type fitted to D4).
To my suprise, I found one of them (the main cranking battery) was down from the specified 50Ah capacity to a measured 14Ah, and the other was only around 30Ah. The reason it's surprising is that it would still start a 2.8L diesel in the depth of winter with no problem.
The internal resistance of these batteries is very low, so they are still capable of providing high currents for starting, even when their capacity is seriously reduced. However, it's then very easy to get from 'will start' to 'wont start' by drawing only a small amount of power.
If you left around 12W of interior lights on for three hours, then thats 3Ah total. Thats only 5% discharge from a full spec Optima, but it's 20% of the available power in my 'duff' one, and quite probably enough to prevent the car from starting.
It's not the first time I've seen this capacity reduction in AGM batteries that appear to work fine as starting batteries, but it is the first time I've had the opportunity to measure it at all.
The typical garage test applies a high load to a charged battery, and looks for how well the battery will sustain the cell voltage. The problem is that a battery with high cranking capacity (CCA) for it's Ah capacity may appear to be more healthy than it really is.
I don't know what the current draw would be for a D3/4 left with the tailgate open. Maybe the car never goes to sleep and so draws much more power, but even if it were 5A, that would only be around 15Ah, and shouldn't prevent you starting the engine - I'd strongly suspect the battery is duff.
A good modern charger might have smart charging and reconditioning methods for AGM batteries. I followed a published charging scheme for my duff optima, and got it back to around 32Ah but that's still not good enough for comfort in my book. It's now my garage 'jump pack'.
19th Aug 2013 4:49 pm
thehappysailor
Member Since: 20 Jun 2012
Location: King's Lynn - Norfolk
Posts: 64
Well if its any help the battery on my MY10 HSE with RSE and Park remote failed last winter on an almost daily basis, had it replaced and not been a problem since.
Maybe its just luck of the draw? However my other car done exactly the same, 3 and a half years old, battery died. This was probably from lack of use though.
19th Aug 2013 5:22 pm
Bill Wright
Member Since: 03 Nov 2007
Location: Glorious Devon
Posts: 3254
Thanks for the advice and info guys. All my interior lights are LED's and my understanding is that they draw less power. Is that true? Is there any meat in the statement that I should have the battery at least disconnected whilst on charge?
Bill WrightNever take life too seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
D4 SDV6 SE Tech Kaikoura Stone MY15.
19th Aug 2013 7:27 pm
Robbie
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
With a modern intelligent charger you can charge the battery whilst installed. Quite a few on the forum charge through the tow electrics to make it easy. Cteks are a popular choice of charger.
The interior lights are not the issue on their own; with doors open elements of the car are awake and drawing current.
Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Member Since: 13 Jan 2010
Location: hants
Posts: 592
So Bill, is it sorted?d4 HSE
9th Sep 2013 5:03 pm
Bill Wright
Member Since: 03 Nov 2007
Location: Glorious Devon
Posts: 3254
A belated "negative" to that last question. I followed advice and switched off the interior lights and as I haven't had cause to leave the tailgate open for ages, there's been no problem.
Yesterday though, I left it open for 30 mins (maybe 45 mins tops) and the engine wouldn't turn over on the battery so had a jump start and gave it a good run and tickover for about an hour. I put it in the garage last night and this morning it started fine so rolled it out and left it running for 30 mins to replace the drawdown of starting it up. I switched it off and then on again (with no engine running) to run through the various facilities with the Faultmate FCR . Loads of Comm Error 1 but no Faults to correct. Tried to start it up and no joy!
I sat there for 30 seconds contemplating what to do and tried again. This time it fired up no problem.
So, the question is have I got an electrical fault that somehow is intermittent or ................? I'm at a loss. The car is booked in for a service (second year) and I have alerted Taunton LR about the problem.
It's a bit frustrating now, not knowing whether the car will start anytime I want to go out.
Bill WrightNever take life too seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
D4 SDV6 SE Tech Kaikoura Stone MY15.
16th Oct 2013 2:00 pm
Dave T
Member Since: 03 Jul 2009
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 6902
My 2012 model had a duff battery, apparently there was a bad batch, maybe yours is one of them, get LR assist or the AA out next time and they will test the battery.Joined the BMWX5 45e group
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16th Oct 2013 3:25 pm
al cope
Member Since: 08 Nov 2005
Location: Oldbury, WM
Posts: 10299
but dont the inside lights switch themselves of after a short(ish) period, They did on the D3. I wouldnt have thought it was just the lights draining the battery
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16th Oct 2013 3:38 pm
Bill Wright
Member Since: 03 Nov 2007
Location: Glorious Devon
Posts: 3254
Al
I can only surmise that the open tailgate is connected to the battery drain as it's only then (whether or not the courtesy lights are off) that it seems to go flat. I switched them off to try and eliminate one possible source of power drain.
I'll ask TLR Dave T re: the duff battery batch. Have you any reference that I could quote please?
Bill Never take life too seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
) and told me that there is no problem with the battery. Now here is where I am confused. They said that the battery needs to be removed from the car to be completely re-charged as the alternator will only half charge it during engine running time. They insisted that the battery had to be removed (not just disconnected) as otherwise I'd be charging the whole car. I listened to this statement with a straight face and thanking them politely, I left . (I could see that it was going to kick off so I got out of there fast! 
)
