RR38HANS
Member Since: 22 Jul 2008
Location: BRUGES
Posts: 179
  
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New tailgate badge in the making
DISCOVERY 3 PERPETUUM MOBILE 05 TDV6 HSE AUTO 7seats, tonga green/alpaca, alpine roof, privacy glass, tow kit, wood kit, 20" stormers n summer, 18" in winter, fancy exhausts, rear seat ent., club fooked turbo!
RANGE ROVER 1995 SOFTDASH (sold)
RANGE ROVER 1997 P38 (sold)
TRIUMPH TR6 OD
LOTUS EXCEL SE
AUDI A2 TDI
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 20th Jan 2009 3:14 pm |
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London Lad
Member Since: 27 May 2008
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 505
 
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DiscoDunc wrote:but dont you think that if the fuel consumption improves the net result is a saving 
YES. Got it rigged up in the passenger foot well, enquiring minds need to know  .
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You should never argue with idiots because they will just drag you down to their level....then beat you with experience !
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| 20th Jan 2009 3:24 pm |
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LR3GuyJoe
Member Since: 02 Dec 2008
Location: Space Coast Florida
Posts: 443
  
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Ok since I'm at work and I work with BTUs and watts all day long I think I can justify working this out for you on work time. 
Your looking at the 20L unit so lets say its a perfect world and all 20L where pure hydrogen (its actually Oxyhydrogen)
Hydrogen's btu value is about 324btu/cf and oxygens btu value is 0
20L works out to be about 0.71 cubic feet so that 20L yeilds you about 230btu/hr.
Ok the Unit your looking at says it draws 7-8amps. Lets say its a perfect world again and its only drawing 7amps. Now luck us we are driving D3 which have a higher than normal volatage charging system. i actually dont know what the out put of the D3 alternator is but everyone says its high. I'm going to use 13.5 because thats pretty average.
so 7amps * 13.5 volts = 94.5watts
1 watt hour = 3.4 btu
so we get 321 btu's per hour
So in summary we put 321btu/hr in to the system and get 230btu/hr. We used more energy than we gained.
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| 20th Jan 2009 3:29 pm |
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DiscoDunc
Member Since: 08 May 2006
Location: Bristol
Posts: 16390
  
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Quote:We used more energy than we gained.
but did we save money by getting more MPG ?
LondonLad,
have you driven it enough to see if it does improve consumption, and by how much +ve or -Ve !! Duncan
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If I'd known I was going to be so thirsty this morning I'd have drunk more beer last night.
FFRR Autobiography 4.4 SDV8 MY17
D4 HSE MY13 SOLD
FFRR 3.6 Vogue TDV8 SOLD
D4 HSE MY10 SOLD
D4 SE TECH MY15 SOLD
D4 XS MY12 SOLD
D4 HSE MY10 SOLD
D3 HSE MY06 - Re-Cycled Worldwide
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| 20th Jan 2009 3:32 pm |
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London Lad
Member Since: 27 May 2008
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 505
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Sorry Dunc, I miss spelt 'Get' as 'Got'
Ment to say 'GET it set up in the passenger.........'
Sorry  .
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You should never argue with idiots because they will just drag you down to their level....then beat you with experience !
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| 20th Jan 2009 3:35 pm |
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DiscoDunc
Member Since: 08 May 2006
Location: Bristol
Posts: 16390
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Ahh. I might do the same if I can secure it , just for initial test purposes. the pipe can run through the grommet in the firewall as can the power cables. a simple on/off switch will do until i trigger from ignition. Duncan
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If I'd known I was going to be so thirsty this morning I'd have drunk more beer last night.
FFRR Autobiography 4.4 SDV8 MY17
D4 HSE MY13 SOLD
FFRR 3.6 Vogue TDV8 SOLD
D4 HSE MY10 SOLD
D4 SE TECH MY15 SOLD
D4 XS MY12 SOLD
D4 HSE MY10 SOLD
D3 HSE MY06 - Re-Cycled Worldwide
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| 20th Jan 2009 3:37 pm |
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LR3GuyJoe
Member Since: 02 Dec 2008
Location: Space Coast Florida
Posts: 443
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DiscoDunc wrote:Quote:We used more energy than we gained.
but did we save money by getting more MPG ?
Well the thing is you could actually see worse mpg numbers. Again your using more energy than you are gaining. A small bit of your fuel is used to run the alternator. If your alternator has to do more work it uses more fuel. So thats more fuel burnt while your driving.
This is the first law of thermo.. Energy can not be created or destroyed.
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| 20th Jan 2009 3:41 pm |
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LR3GuyJoe
Member Since: 02 Dec 2008
Location: Space Coast Florida
Posts: 443
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Heres another way to look at it.
Lets say you opted for the 50L unit, again in a perfect world you could have the potential of 570btu/hr with the larger unit and the specs state 7-12amps.
So again perfect world your alternator is operating at 100% efficiency as is the device and it only draws 7 amps and from befor we know thats 321btu per hour.
Well sh!t in this case we get + 249btu out of the system. (again this is assuming perfect conditions)
Looking at the site they seem to claim from 10%-15% improvement in you mpg.
so lets say you get 20mpg 1 gallon(US) gas yeilds about 125,000 btus
So you drive for an hour at 20miles/hr (I know its slow but its easy for the math) you burned 1 gallon of gas.
So you used 125,000btu/hr. Well lets take the low end of there stated savings 10%. 10% of 125,000 is 12,500btu. so if we get a 10% savings the device is giving us 12,500btu but the 50L unit is only possible of creating 249btu in a perfect system. Thats 12,251btu short, where did the extra btus come from?
Im all for new ideas Im actually starting a green consulting firm to help people greenify their houses. I just hate to see people suckerd out of money.
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| 20th Jan 2009 4:03 pm |
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DiscoDunc
Member Since: 08 May 2006
Location: Bristol
Posts: 16390
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I think the only way to see for sure is to test it sitting it in the footwell and doing a few hundred miles test before i decide where to permanently fit it.. Duncan
-----------------------------------------------------
If I'd known I was going to be so thirsty this morning I'd have drunk more beer last night.
FFRR Autobiography 4.4 SDV8 MY17
D4 HSE MY13 SOLD
FFRR 3.6 Vogue TDV8 SOLD
D4 HSE MY10 SOLD
D4 SE TECH MY15 SOLD
D4 XS MY12 SOLD
D4 HSE MY10 SOLD
D3 HSE MY06 - Re-Cycled Worldwide
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| 20th Jan 2009 5:27 pm |
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Bushwanderer
Member Since: 27 Nov 2007
Location: Northern Rivers, NSW, Australia
Posts: 2050
 
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Nah! Just save your money to buy diesel.  The Bearded Dragon
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| 21st Jan 2009 9:01 am |
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simonsi
Member Since: 14 Oct 2007
Location: Auckland
Posts: 1264
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DiscoDunc wrote:Quote:We used more energy than we gained.
but did we save money by getting more MPG ?
You certainly cam't by using the energy in the hydrogen as the missing energy has to be made up, there are only two options, you burn more fuel to drive the altenator to produce the electricity or your battery gradually goes flat.
All of the human races knowledge of physics is based on energy conservation theory so IF you are convinced you get this to work don't forget to write it up... 
Injecting water into an internal combustion engine can increase efficiency by cooling the incoming air charge but hydrogen won't do even that AFAIK. Cheers
Simon
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| 21st Jan 2009 12:48 pm |
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SJR
Member Since: 09 Aug 2006
Location: East Manchester
Posts: 4030
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simonsi wrote:
All of the human races knowledge of physics is based on energy conservation theory so IF you are convinced you get this to work don't forget to write it up...
Could be the Forums first Nobel prize 
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| 21st Jan 2009 12:53 pm |
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London Lad
Member Since: 27 May 2008
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 505
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I used to have an old Sarb turbo years ago. I fitted a water injection kit that used a windscreen washer motor to squirt a fine mist of water into the inlet ducting at full throttle.
As you say this worked by cooling the inlet charge. And it did work, I dyno'd the car with and without and there was an increase in power, I can't remember how much but it was both measurable and noticeable when driving.
So you thermo-scientists, where did the extra energy come from ?  .
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You should never argue with idiots because they will just drag you down to their level....then beat you with experience !
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| 21st Jan 2009 2:08 pm |
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simonsi
Member Since: 14 Oct 2007
Location: Auckland
Posts: 1264
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London Lad wrote:I used to have an old Sarb turbo years ago. I fitted a water injection kit that used a windscreen washer motor to squirt a fine mist of water into the inlet ducting at full throttle.
As you say this worked by cooling the inlet charge. And it did work, I dyno'd the car with and without and there was an increase in power, I can't remember how much but it was both measurable and noticeable when driving.
So you thermo-scientists, where did the extra energy come from ?
Petrol. The cooled charge increases the thermal efficiency by reducing the incoming charge temp hence the engine draws more air and fuel mixture into the engine hence slightly more power. Even a fuel injected engine will respond to the increased air density of the cooler charge by increasing the fuel injected.
My normally aspirated Fiat Strada 2.0l used to go noticably better in cold damp weather (until carb icing took over), same theory and practice.
You WILL NOT beat energy conservation theory.... Cheers
Simon
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| 21st Jan 2009 2:15 pm |
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London Lad
Member Since: 27 May 2008
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 505
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OK, just discussing here, not arguing 
Based on your explanation you can never get improved fuel efficiency ?
Lets say a D3 does 27mpg average. It then gets re mapped, the driver drives the same but experiences improved economy say 29mpg average.
Where did that come from ? .
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You should never argue with idiots because they will just drag you down to their level....then beat you with experience !
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| 21st Jan 2009 2:44 pm |
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