Member Since: 08 Nov 2005
Location: Oldbury, WM
Posts: 10361
Knife crime deaths ?
Can’t remember if this has been covered before……….
So on NYE another youngster lost his life to a stabbing, which will be devastating to his family for the rest of their lives.
There seems to be no deterrent to those who carry and are prepared to use knives. They either don’t know/understand/or care about the consequences of their actions. The question of why this is could take an eternity to unravel (bad education/poor parenting/video gaming/lack of morals/etc/etc)
So what, even as a short term action could be used to get folks to stop and consider their actions.
Could/should capital punishment be reintroduced, even for a limited period (say 2 years) as a shock measure. And made to be “immediate”, i.e, if you are found guilty of knife murder, it’s clear cut you did it, no ambiguity, you get 30 days to appeal, if after this this you are still guilty, then next morning its a walk to an appointment with a short rope ( no “humane injection to go to sleep”), even the type of execution has to invoke people to think about what might happen if they commit murder.
I am not in general a supporter of capital punishment but right now we don’t seem to have an answer to what’s happening.
This isn’t an invitation to get flamed, more to try and see what an answer might look like
Thoughts
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2nd Jan 2024 9:16 am
Trailered Movements
Member Since: 16 Jan 2020
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I'm in for that, however, murder is murder whatever the 'method'.
There is the crime of manslaughter that might escape hanging, but yes, a rope for murder would seem to be a deterrent only the thickest idiot would not understand.
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2nd Jan 2024 9:21 am
Nasher
Member Since: 07 Mar 2009
Location: Clanfield, North of Pompey - UK
Posts: 2821
Is the death penalty really much more of a deterrent though?
It seems to me that anyone who is prepared to gamble with spending a long period of their life incarcerated at his majesty's pleasure wouldn't find being put to death as much more of a deterrent.
I'm all for it though, my taxes feeding them 3 times a day grates a bit.Heaven doesn't want me, and hell is afraid I'll take over.
2nd Jan 2024 9:49 am
Farmer Chalk
Member Since: 06 Mar 2013
Location: Independent Republic of Kentishshire.
Posts: 4197
There should be mandatory jail sentence for anyone carrying a knife regardless whether it is for ‘self protection’…. Minimum term one year extending to five years for a second offence…
If it’s a machete or sword then a straight five years!
"For my own protection". Not having a knife in a world were everyone else does puts you at a disadvantage.
Like most of my friends, I received a sheath-knife for my tenth birthday (i.e., 1980). At the weekends, we would all be wearing our knives on our belts and be out in the woods. We'd wear them around the town, too, and nobody raised an eyebrow. We knew not to muck about with them in any way and that there would be serious consequences if we did. Pen-knives were acceptable at school. No Policemen wore stab vests.
Knife amnesties and "Stop and Search" are a good start. The penalties are already very stiff. A couple of times I've found a Stanley knife I'd left in my car or an Opinel folding knife in my pocket - both of these could get me in serious trouble. I have a couple of 12" knives in my garage. I no longer really need them but can't think of a way to get rid of them without grief. I'm sure the technology will soon exist to detect knives carried by people walking down the street.
That said, the Eritreans attacking each other and the Police used sticks to do so!
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2nd Jan 2024 9:59 am
Moo D3 Decade
Member Since: 13 Aug 2010
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I was stabbed in a fight at Uni in 1990. A party I was at was crashed by the Crusties that used to invade Stonehenge in their vans before heading down to Glastonbury to cause mayhem and chaos there. It was all before it became a middle class love in.
Anyway, I had just come back from a four week attachment with the Army (I was sponsored through Uni by the Royal Engineers) and had spent a week training in close quarter and unarmed combat with the RAF Regiment. It came in very useful, but I still got stabbed twice, however the tw4t who did it spent over a week in hospital. The odd thing is that you don't feel the stab, it's more of a punch.
Anyway, since then I've been very conscious of the rise and willing abandon that kids and young men carry, threaten and use knives without and thought of the consequences. It seems to be the first default in an argument to stab the other person, often over the most trivial things.
It really is time the government got a grip of this through education, out of school activities and really hard and painful sentences.
I'd start at (with no parole):
- Two years for carrying a concealed knife.
- Five years for a machete, sword or hammer. Also, five years if caught carrying again.
- Twenty years for manslaughter or using it in aggravated crimes like robbery, burglary or being caught a third time etc.
- Life without parole for murder.
Hopefully this would stop things and take those off the streets that are just societal oxygen scavengers.D4 HSE EU6 (Known as Jeeves)
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2nd Jan 2024 10:46 am
al cope
Member Since: 08 Nov 2005
Location: Oldbury, WM
Posts: 10361
Does stop and search really work, not convinced it does as even if caught carrying it’s a slap on the wrist. And sentences for murder, i.e life in prison doesn’t mean life. A 25 year sentence with parole seems to be about 13years, so someone sent down at 16 or 17 is only about 30 when they are released, so can go on to live their lives.
But prison is “after the event”, so what deterrent can be put in place to try and halt this activity beforehand.
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2nd Jan 2024 10:52 am
Trailered Movements
Member Since: 16 Jan 2020
Location: East/West Sussex Coast Borders
Posts: 1200
If by merely carrying a weapon that could cause death, which would emcompass most weapons, there was a fixed penalty which amounted to a custodial sentence for which there was no early release, say 3yrs, those that leave home equipped would know the consequences.
Should that weapon be used to intimidate, then the sentence should be 5yrs, and if actually used, then the charge would be a minimum of attempted murder.
If jail terms given in court were to be served in full with no parole or early release options, only then might it start to hit home the consequences of ones actions.
That would also rely on judges handing out sentences that justify the crime, and if the rule book needs re-writing, then so be it, but at the moment being locked up for a couple of years does not serve as a deterrent, it seems to carry some sort of 'badge'.
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2nd Jan 2024 11:30 am
Trailered Movements
Member Since: 16 Jan 2020
Location: East/West Sussex Coast Borders
Posts: 1200
And another thing, anyone convicted of any offence more than once, has that sentence doubled, tripled etc., etc.
I know it would mean more prisons, but think of the employment it would generate, it's a win win.
As for funding, criminals and families of them if on benefits, should be made to pay for their stay in prison, if not all, then something.
You have to hit hard and cause real pain and suffering to those that transgress for it to have a lasting effect, slapping their wrists and telling them they are bad people just doesn't work in todays society.
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2nd Jan 2024 11:40 am
LT
Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: South West
Posts: 23866
Trailered Movements wrote:
I'm in for that, however, murder is murder whatever the 'method'.
There is the crime of manslaughter that might escape hanging, but yes, a rope for murder would seem to be a deterrent only the thickest idiot would not understand.
Dave
However, in America statistics show that states that have death penalty laws do not have lower crime rates or murder rates than states without such laws.
So would it really work as a deterrent in the U.K.? I suspect not.2006 D3 HSE (Original & still the best)-GONE
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Any sane, logical, person would recognise jail as a deterrent.
Any sane, logical,person with a knife would not be carrying it with intent to commit crime.
Many of the perpetrators are persuaded to do the crime by slightly brighter, ultimately more dangerous, individuals.
I'd concede this is a cultural problem but it's not a racial thing..
Dean
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2nd Jan 2024 2:49 pm
Trailered Movements
Member Since: 16 Jan 2020
Location: East/West Sussex Coast Borders
Posts: 1200
In general, the Americans are a frightening people, happy to have any Tom, Dick & Harry buy a semi-automatic gun, they also are by and large not as educated in right and wrong as you may think.
Short of culling an entire family of any convicted murderer, there would appear to be nothing that would make most of them think twice before taking lethal action, even then I doubt it would make much difference.
To use America as an example of just about anything is just not to be considered plausable, I mean, their history only goes back to last Tuesday, and is based entirely on the removal of an indigenous people and the imposition of values that many find offensive.
Having worked with them for many years, some of their values are beyond what many an intelligent, informed individual would consider acceptable.
And should any American take offence at these comments, I don't tar all with the same brush.
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2nd Jan 2024 2:57 pm
RRSTDV8
Member Since: 07 Apr 2014
Location: Here
Posts: 13606
HWN wrote:
A couple of times I've found a Stanley knife I'd left in my car or an Opinel folding knife in my pocket - both of these could get me in serious trouble.
You can have a knife if you have reasonable cause to have it with you. I have a small Opinel in my shooting gear - it's useful when shooting and so carrying it is reasonable (and I have a shotgun with me, so the knife wouldn't be the first issue for Plod). Having it my pocket in Sainsbury's, however? That'll be a "no" to the "reasonable grounds" excuse.
I have a nice US-made sheath knife too
Click image to enlarge
But it's too nice to risk losing out in the field and, frankly, too much knife for my needs when after game birds anyway. Ideal if I was after deer.
Quote:
I have a couple of 12" knives in my garage. I no longer really need them but can't think of a way to get rid of them without grief.
Hand them in at a Police station. Go in and ask if you can hand in a couple of knives that you found at the back of your garage when having a clear out. They will be happy to take them away. Best to go and ask first, of course, as walking in carrying 2 big knives might get a more forceful response than you would like.
I did this with an old air rifle I found in a cellar of a previous house. Went in and asked at the Police station and they were happy to take it away. And they thanked me for not scaring them by walking in with it without first checking with them.Visiting from rrsport.co.uk
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2nd Jan 2024 3:05 pm
RRSTDV8
Member Since: 07 Apr 2014
Location: Here
Posts: 13606
LT wrote:
Trailered Movements wrote:
I'm in for that, however, murder is murder whatever the 'method'.
There is the crime of manslaughter that might escape hanging, but yes, a rope for murder would seem to be a deterrent only the thickest idiot would not understand.
Dave
However, in America statistics show that states that have death penalty laws do not have lower crime rates or murder rates than states without such laws.
So would it really work as a deterrent in the U.K.? I suspect not.
If one looks at UK statistics, the murder rate fell during the time when capital punishment existed but climbed after it was banned:
So there could be argument that it would work in the UK. Statistics being a malleable tool, of course.
The murder rate is currently the same as it was in the 1980s having peaked around 2002.
Bear in mind that lots of murders are still carried out within families - kids stabbing each other is a tragedy that hits the headlines much more than the domestic deaths that occur every week. About 10% of murders are young people being stabbed. There are racial and gender differences in the numbers. 40% of all murders are by stabbing of some form (that's quote shocking but perhaps not surprising when one considers domestic violence and the ease of laying hands on a knife in the home).
Quote:
Homicide returned to pre-coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic levels, with 696 victims in the latest year; this is 130 more (a 23% increase) than the year ending March 2021 when government restrictions meant there was less social contact.
The homicide rate was 11.7 per million population, with the rate for males (16.9 per million population) more than twice that for females (6.6 per million population).
The homicide rate over the three-year period to the year ending March 2022 was 39.7 per million population for the Black ethnic group, approximately four times higher than for the White ethnic group (8.9 per million population).
Approximately 4 in 10 homicides were committed using a knife or sharp instrument (282 homicides); a 19% increase compared with the previous year, and the highest annual total since the Homicide Index began in 1946 (similar to the previous high of 281 in the year ending March 2018).
There were 69 homicides victims aged 13 to 19 years, of these, 51 were killed by a knife or sharp instrument.
There were 134 domestic homicides in the year ending March 2022, 18 more than the previous year, and a similar number to the average over the last decade (129).
Males accounted for 72% of homicide victims in the latest year, and 93% of convicted suspects.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationand.../march2022Visiting from rrsport.co.uk
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Last edited by RRSTDV8 on 2nd Jan 2024 3:38 pm. Edited 1 time in total
I've thrown large kitchen knives in the recycling bin before now..
Dean
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persuaded to do the crime by slightly brighter, ultimately more dangerous, individuals.
