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simon
Member Since: 11 Jan 2005
Location: Shropshire
Posts: 18296
  
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How would they know about a re-map after a crash ?? Unless they dug deep into what the vehicle had as standard and discovered what it actually had installed.
Not telling the ins company would not be a get out clause if they did discover what you had done.
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 29th Mar 2009 4:36 pm |
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Winger
Site Moderator
Member Since: 15 Feb 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 3428
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London Lad wrote:I think its a moot point with stuff like 4x4 info and upgraded stereo. How would they know and how would it effect their risk ?
It has nothing to do with risk, or the pricing of risk. It is simply a get out for them. Materiality is a very difficult thing to argue, so a far simpler reference point is "has your vehicle been modified in any way at all?" If the answer is yes, and you don't tell them, they are entirely entitled to refuse to pay. And remember, this covers third-party liability too. Is it worth the risk? That's entirely a personal choice.
Last edited by Winger on 29th Mar 2009 4:39 pm. Edited 1 time in total
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| 29th Mar 2009 4:38 pm |
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London Lad
Member Since: 27 May 2008
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 505
 
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Wasn't talking about remaps .
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You should never argue with idiots because they will just drag you down to their level....then beat you with experience !
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| 29th Mar 2009 4:39 pm |
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Willy Eckerslike
Member Since: 12 Jan 2009
Location: N Yorks
Posts: 1612
 
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Exactly, hurrah for common sense. Most people who own D3's are over the age of 18yrs, if they wish to modify THEIR vehicles so be it. Warnings have been posted about insurance etc. Let people decide for them selves. It's enough of a nanny state as it is. Obviously one would hope that any mods that affect the vehicles safety I.E. brakes power handling safety systems (for other road users) are subjected to an inspection by somebody qualified. If you wish to upgrade and have your reversing lights following you home fine by me. I prefer mine to stay with the car.
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| 29th Mar 2009 4:42 pm |
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London Lad
Member Since: 27 May 2008
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 505
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Winger wrote:London Lad wrote:I think its a moot point with stuff like 4x4 info and upgraded stereo. How would they know and how would it effect their risk ?
It has nothing to do with risk, or the pricing of risk. It is simply a get out for them. Materiality is a very difficult thing to argue, so a far simpler reference point is "has your vehicle been modified in any way at all?" If the answer is yes, and you don't tell them, they are entirely entitled to refuse to pay. And remember, this covers third-party liability too. Is it worth the risk? That's entirely a personal choice.
OK first of all I'm not talking about power remaps, that different.
They can't withdraw road traffic act cover (pretty much third party) under any circumstances unless you are not licence to drive that vehicle, its the law.
If an insurance company refused a claim on the grounds that you had upgraded your 4x4 info or similar just take the case to the insurance ombudsman, its quick and free (to you) and they would pay up straight away.
We must not loose sight of reality and let these insurance companies bully us with 'get out clauses' If you add BHP then yes of course the risk goes up but reprogram the radio or the nav system, no way. .
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You should never argue with idiots because they will just drag you down to their level....then beat you with experience !
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| 29th Mar 2009 4:46 pm |
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simon
Member Since: 11 Jan 2005
Location: Shropshire
Posts: 18296
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Not all remaps are power related.
A modification is a modification.
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| 29th Mar 2009 4:48 pm |
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London Lad
Member Since: 27 May 2008
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 505
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A remap effects the performance of the car, or at least its supposed to. An insurer could argue that your car now has more BHP or torque and should be rated higher.
How does reprogramming my radio or follow me home lights effect their risk ?
Its like saying I should tell them I have retuned my radio pre-sets to different stations. .
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You should never argue with idiots because they will just drag you down to their level....then beat you with experience !
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| 29th Mar 2009 4:53 pm |
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Winger
Site Moderator
Member Since: 15 Feb 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 3428
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Mr Lad, the issue is whether or not you are, effectively, insured.
If a GS owner, with a deal of labour, cost, and software wizardy fits a sat nav to their vehicle, with nav on the move enable. Whilst fiddling with the TMC on the motorway, they plough into the back of another vehicle. They have not told their insurer about the addition of the navigation system, they admit to the police that they were fiddling with the screen and they are in deep doo from a legal perspective, and their insurer has an immediate get out.
It all may sound hypothetical and trivial, but when it comes to claims - well that is another story. What you pay out in premium is one thing; what the insurer pays you in the event of a claim is entirely different.
Quite simply, owners need to consider all angles if they choose to modify their vehicles. This has absolutely nothing to do with the BBS system, or any other diagnostic manipluatory software, specifically.
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| 29th Mar 2009 4:57 pm |
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London Lad
Member Since: 27 May 2008
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 505
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Mr Winger,
Now you are moving the goal posts and talking about driving offences.
In the UK a motor insurer CANNOT remove your road traffic act cover by law (unless you are not licensed to drive the vehicle), so the only person at risk is you not a third party.
If you are, to use your words 'fiddling with the TMC on the motorway' and drive into the back of something then you are guilty of careless / reckless driving, same as if you are fiddling with your tom-tom or heater controls.
I have challenged a number of insurance companies who have tried to refuse claims on technicalities that were of no relevance to the risk. They always pay up as soon as you involve the insurance ombudsman.
Anyway its entirely up to the individual concerned and as I have an HSE I won't be doing any reprogramming. Unless you think I need to tell them about my dog guard  .
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You should never argue with idiots because they will just drag you down to their level....then beat you with experience !
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| 29th Mar 2009 5:13 pm |
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Winger
Site Moderator
Member Since: 15 Feb 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 3428
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A dog guard is a standard LR accessory.
As to insurance, then you need to think slightly more widely than you currently are. You point to the issue in your second paragraph: "the only person as risk is you..."
This is a D3 forum, not a citizens advice bureau; as such, I am not willing to expand further. Anyone concerned should consult their insurer - 3rd party liability does not stop with the insurance company.
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| 29th Mar 2009 5:20 pm |
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London Lad
Member Since: 27 May 2008
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 505
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Winger wrote:A dog guard is a standard LR accessory. snip.....
So is 4x4 info, Hi Line stereo etc, you just cant buy them as an extra!
So would you want me to tell them about a different make of dog guard? See how ridiculous it gets.
This is like a 'discussion' with my wife, she tries to move the goal posts and if that doesn't work she gets all secretive. 
Lets just agree to disagree.  .
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You should never argue with idiots because they will just drag you down to their level....then beat you with experience !
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| 29th Mar 2009 5:29 pm |
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Winger
Site Moderator
Member Since: 15 Feb 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 3428
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Of course not - an interior dog guard is, frankly, an irrelevance.
The point I am making is that anyone who modifies their vehicle should very carefully consider disclosure to their insurer. Despite your claims, in an extreme case failure to disclose could invalidate your insurance altogether. In other words, no insurance at all - the same as driving uninsured.
The debate on the modification software has become somewhat irrational. To me, the BBS software looks like a very interesting toy - provided it is treated with respect, in the same way you'd treat a gun with respect. However, in the context of modification, it is entirely reasonable to point out the simple pitfalls that are out there in insurance land. To do otherwise, or the challenge such conjecture, is simply irresponsible.
I have nothing further to say on this matter.
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| 29th Mar 2009 5:40 pm |
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countrywide
Member Since: 16 Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 6019
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Nothing to with any boxes, but I thought that insurance companies had to pay out on a 3rd party claim regardless. Is this not the case. If you get hit by a drunk driver, don't you get paid out by his insurance anyway
or do you have to claim off your own and then sue him to get the money back.
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| 29th Mar 2009 5:49 pm |
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Winger
Site Moderator
Member Since: 15 Feb 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 3428
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If your insurance is invalidated, the latter. Hence the risk sits with you, if your insurance should suffer such a fate. If the other driver is insured, then your company claims of the other driver's.
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| 29th Mar 2009 5:53 pm |
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London Lad
Member Since: 27 May 2008
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 505
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Countrywide you are correct. As I have said twice in this thread:-
"In the UK a motor insurer CANNOT remove your road traffic act cover by law (unless you are not licensed to drive the vehicle)" .
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You should never argue with idiots because they will just drag you down to their level....then beat you with experience !
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| 29th Mar 2009 5:54 pm |
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