Member Since: 17 Jan 2010
Location: Argyll Scotland
Posts: 329
Nasty shock
Does anyone know how caravan manufactures arrive at their very precise (and in my opinion, low) payload figures for their caravans? Having just found that ours was way over the MTPL (Max technical permitted laden mass) I looked in detail at how much we are allowed to carry and it is not much!
With the advent of lighter cars I suspect the manufacturers are frightened to put too high a figure in their spec in case it drives away potential customers, but the rather low figures quoted and what I see coming out of some vans, makes me think that there are a lot of overloaded vans on the road..
Our van is a Bailey Pegasus, which was advertised with a Ford Mondeo on the roof, suggesting that both the axle and the chassis are capable of taking approx 1500 kgs, so why the miniscule payload? (total user payload is 216kg and that includes everything, gas, battery, mover, crockery, bedding, clothes, food etc).
On a similar topic, anyone know where the mystical 85% caravan/towing car weight ratio comes from?
The 85% comes from the caravan clubs research as far as I know.
They also say experienced towers can exceed this figure
As for payload, no idea Mark.
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12th Sep 2013 6:53 pm
bigcarpchaser
Member Since: 13 Oct 2007
Location: Camberley
Posts: 2270
Of course they can carry more than stated but, I dare say there is some kind of factor of safety built in but I do see some rather large caravans being towed by remarkably small vehicles. Not something I'd like to do. Have been jiggled around a few times by mine even behind the D3 but I guess you can't blame the manufacturer for covering their backsides.
I've recently read somewhere that you can eat your van reclassified to carry more weight. Think it was in C&CC mag.Welcome "Lola"
Last edited by bigcarpchaser on 12th Sep 2013 10:17 pm. Edited 2 times in total
12th Sep 2013 7:00 pm
wvlenthe
Member Since: 07 Jan 2009
Location: Arnhem
Posts: 1967
Obviously you can get your van reclassified but the axle has to have a reserve capacity.
My van has a gross vehicle weight of 1600 kg and that's also the technical limit of the axle, so no reclassification for me.
I can load 200 kgs and that is only just enough, I cannot put a mover or airconditioning in.
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12th Sep 2013 9:58 pm
Russell
Member Since: 24 Aug 2007
Location: Kent
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I believe Baile will reclassify your van without much hassle.MY17 D5 1st Edition Namib Orange
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12th Sep 2013 10:09 pm
D4mation
Member Since: 29 Jul 2011
Location: Ruralshire
Posts: 593
The only plate that counts on a caravan is the one put on by the chassis manufacturer, and in the case of an AL-KO chassis it's on the axle tube between the wheels.
As long as the van, when hitched to the car, doesn't weigh more than that plated limit, AND the tyres are rated to take the weight, then you won't get into trouble with VOSA.
Caravan manufacturers plates on the side of the van are worth nothing. They are just a marketing ploy to attract Mondeo Man into thinking he can tow the van - only to find he has a miserable payload allowance. MY12 D4 HSE Ipanema Sand
13th Sep 2013 12:06 am
mzplcg
Member Since: 23 Jun 2009
Location: Gone
Posts: 1087
^^^ Exactly. And you would do well to find this for yourself so incase you get pulled in for a check you can point them to the correct plate. My AL-KO twin axle chassis is rated to 2000KG yet the manufacturer of the caravan list it as 1900kg, and that's with the upgrade. Standard it's 1760kg.
2000KG gives me about 400kg of payload, plus what goes in the D3. Even with all swmbo's junk necessary items we've got plenty to spare.
One other point, if the chassis is rated to 2000kg then the tug must be rated to that as well (or more). You can't tow a TA van with a mondeo, despite what any caravan handbooks tell you.
13th Sep 2013 8:08 am
Ted Newman
Member Since: 09 Oct 2010
Location: SE London
Posts: 840
The chassis may be 2000 kg but if the axles is (for example) only 1700 kg then that is your limit and VOSA are fully aware of this.LR Discovery 4 XS pulling an Airstream 532 Caravan also own (since new) a 1996 MGF
13th Sep 2013 9:54 am
nigel207
Member Since: 26 Mar 2009
Location: Nottinghamshire
Posts: 1344
mzplcg wrote:
^^^ Exactly. And you would do well to find this for yourself so incase you get pulled in for a check you can point them to the correct plate. My AL-KO twin axle chassis is rated to 2000KG yet the manufacturer of the caravan list it as 1900kg, and that's with the upgrade. Standard it's 1760kg.
2000KG gives me about 400kg of payload, plus what goes in the D3. Even with all swmbo's junk necessary items we've got plenty to spare.
One other point, if the chassis is rated to 2000kg then the tug must be rated to that as well (or more). You can't tow a TA van with a mondeo, despite what any caravan handbooks tell you.
Yes you can, provided the ACTUAL weight doesn't exceed any limits. If VOSA (or the Police) weigh a vehicle, in this case a car and a caravan, they will be guided by the weights on the VIN plate of the car to start with. If they suspect that the caravan is over its weight, then it will be on the whole the axle weight. But don't forget that the axle limit is just that, noseweight also comes into play as that is not supported by the axle. Therefore if at a weighbridge, the unit should be uncoupled from the towing vehicle to get a true weight of the trailer/caravan.
13th Sep 2013 10:04 am
discoteca
Member Since: 08 Mar 2010
Location: Warwickshire
Posts: 1477
An interesting discussion and one I do not profess to be an expert on. Why is it then, that all those that you would think are an authority in this area, categorically state that you cannot legally exceed the MTPLM? I'm thinking Caravan Club, Caravan Council and others that publically state it is illegal to exceed the plated MTPLM on the van.
13th Sep 2013 11:10 am
nigel207
Member Since: 26 Mar 2009
Location: Nottinghamshire
Posts: 1344
You should always abide by the MTPLM plate, although there didn't used to be a legal requirement to have one, and many were removed. That may have changed now, as things have been tightened up. If there was/is no plate, then the axle plate would be used.
However, things really are a minefield where caravans are concerned. As has been stated above, you can obtain an upgraded plate in many cases from the caravan manufacturer without any change to the caravan. In my case, I looked into it, but I would only have gained 5 kg! The MTPLM is 1495, and the axle is rated at 1500.
My reply above "yes you can" was in response to the comment that you could not tow a twin axle caravan with a Mondeo. If the caravan is empty, or lightly loaded, providing it's within the capabilities of the car you can.
MTPLM's are calculated by percentage by the manufacturers. I can't remember what the figures are, but when a caravan is delivered, its MIRO now includes things like the step, mains cable etc (i.e. in the original state that it is supplied to the first customer). There then has to be a minimum over and above this figure for other items. Sometimes this isn't a lot, in other cases better. That gives the MTPLM.
13th Sep 2013 11:59 am
D4mation
Member Since: 29 Jul 2011
Location: Ruralshire
Posts: 593
There is a lot of debate about the interpretation of laws and regulations when it comes to the requirement to display an "MTPLM" plate on a caravan.
Clubs, councils and associations like Caravan Club, NCC, NTTA give statements about the legal requirement to display these weight plates, even mentioning that "since 1982" it has been a legal requirement. However they do not cite the specific piece or pieces of legislation that apply, so it's a flipping minefield.
Member Since: 12 Oct 2009
Location: All over the UK!
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Just been and had a look at my Bailey Pegasus 646:
Manufacturer Plate:
Click image to enlarge
And the Axle Plate - as it's a twin axle you can assume it can be doubled:
Click image to enlarge
Now then...............who do I contact at Bailey to appease Mr VOSA??
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13th Sep 2013 3:10 pm
blue200tdi
Member Since: 23 Sep 2012
Location: Lincoln
Posts: 1094
VOSA go on two weights, axle weight/s and GVW (Gross vehicle weight)
On a caravan you could easily be under the GVW but still be over weight on the axle/s due to the weight distribution/loading. I deal with VOSA on a weekly basis and although I don't know the answer to this conundrum, I would give the advice to stay under or at the rated weight that the manufacturer has plated on the side of the caravan. Get yourself to a weighbridge, the info can be found on most council websites or by googling, most will charge £8 with a print out slip. Do that with the caravan empty and then loaded as it would be when you're going away. There are more than you think and there will be one near you.
Our van is plated 1555KG's, unloaded with just the 6KG gas bottle and motor mover it weighs 1400KG's leaving us 155KG's for all our junk (Two adults, two children) and that's plenty, we have the car for most of it. If you feel you need more, get in touch with the manufacturer, they may well raise it for you. Most manufacturers plate the caravans low so Mondeo man can tow them, or at least make them think they can.
Yes you may be right and the axle loads are what matters, but do you really want the hassle that it will bring by being over the plated weight? At the very least you'll have to move something from the caravan into the car, if you can. Or even worse, your holiday will be ruined, the caravan will be impounded and you'll have a court date to attend. What we really need a a definitive answer from someone who really 'knows' the answer.
And arguing with VOSA is like shoveling snow while it's still snowing! You guys are gonna be busier than a test bench in a plunger factory!
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18th Sep 2013 10:44 pm
Bushwanderer
Member Since: 27 Nov 2007
Location: Northern Rivers, NSW, Australia
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