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LT
Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: South West
Posts: 23866
  
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HWN wrote:LT wrote:Look closely at Rowson’s cartoon and you’ll see what appears to be gold coins under the tentacles.
That shows an awful lot of [unnecessary] effort and detail.
Indeed it does.
Martin Rowson was educated at the highly acclaimed independent Merchant Taylors' School in north-west London, followed by Pembroke College, Cambridge.
With such a good educational background, I find it implausible that he didn't know his cartoon contained so many classic antisemitic imagery.
Is it just coincidence that Rowson signed a letter endorsing the Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyn's leadership in the 2019 general election. The letter stated that "Labour's election manifesto under Jeremy Corbyn's leadership offers a transformative plan that prioritises the needs of people and the planet over private profit and the vested interests of a few."? 2006 D3 HSE (Original & still the best)-GONE
2010 D4 HSE (A bit bling)-GONE
2014 D4 HSE (Almost too bling)-GONE
2015 D4 HSE (A heated what?)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Written Off)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Surely the last!) PD1881 rims-GONE
2017 FFRR SDV8 Autobiography (now semi-retired)
Last edited by LT on 3rd May 2023 3:55 pm. Edited 2 times in total
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 3rd May 2023 3:40 pm |
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LT
Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: South West
Posts: 23866
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JordsDisco wrote:Cartoon apart, I dare say if you look close enough at most things in life, you’ll find fault, sometimes real, sometimes imagined.
Indeed, but that should never be a reason or an excuse not to call out any form of antisemitism, which is the subject of this thread.  2006 D3 HSE (Original & still the best)-GONE
2010 D4 HSE (A bit bling)-GONE
2014 D4 HSE (Almost too bling)-GONE
2015 D4 HSE (A heated what?)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Written Off)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Surely the last!) PD1881 rims-GONE
2017 FFRR SDV8 Autobiography (now semi-retired)
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| 3rd May 2023 3:54 pm |
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JordsDisco
Member Since: 22 May 2020
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 1626
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I don’t think the OP was calling it out so much as provoking a discussion.
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| 3rd May 2023 3:57 pm |
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LT
Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: South West
Posts: 23866
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I was responding to your comment;, "Cartoon apart, I dare say if you look close enough at most things in life, you’ll find fault, sometimes real, sometimes imagined."
So cartoon (the subject of this thread) apart, regardless of the fact that "if you look close enough at most things in life, you’ll find fault, sometimes real, sometimes imagined". I am saying that should not be an excuse to not to call out any form of antisemitism.
Which I am doing in this discussion 2006 D3 HSE (Original & still the best)-GONE
2010 D4 HSE (A bit bling)-GONE
2014 D4 HSE (Almost too bling)-GONE
2015 D4 HSE (A heated what?)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Written Off)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Surely the last!) PD1881 rims-GONE
2017 FFRR SDV8 Autobiography (now semi-retired)
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| 3rd May 2023 4:18 pm |
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RRSTDV8
Member Since: 07 Apr 2014
Location: Here
Posts: 13606
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LT wrote:HWN wrote:LT wrote:Look closely at Rowson’s cartoon and you’ll see what appears to be gold coins under the tentacles.
That shows an awful lot of [unnecessary] effort and detail.
Indeed it does.
Martin Rowson was educated at the highly acclaimed independent Merchant Taylors' School in north-west London, followed by Pembroke College, Cambridge.
With such a good educational background, I find it implausible that he didn't know his cartoon contained so many classic antisemitic imagery.
Is it just coincidence that Rowson signed a letter endorsing the Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyn's leadership in the 2019 general election. The letter stated that "Labour's election manifesto under Jeremy Corbyn's leadership offers a transformative plan that prioritises the needs of people and the planet over private profit and the vested interests of a few."?
Rowson went to school with Sharp (or at least went to the same school and knew of his Jewish heritage) so he has no educational excuses either way.
As for the "vested interests of a few",yes that can be taken to be anti-Semitic if one so chooses but it can also be taken as generally anti- the current system where the 1% have so much of the world's wealth. I sympathise with the latter position if not the former. Visiting from rrsport.co.uk
2012 RRS SDV6
2008 RRS TDV8
"When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die! You don't know who's children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they were always going to have to do from the very beginning: SIT DOWN AND TALK!"
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| 3rd May 2023 4:44 pm |
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RRSTDV8
Member Since: 07 Apr 2014
Location: Here
Posts: 13606
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LT wrote:JordsDisco wrote:Cartoon apart, I dare say if you look close enough at most things in life, you’ll find fault, sometimes real, sometimes imagined.
Indeed, but that should never be a reason or an excuse not to call out any form of antisemitism, which is the subject of this thread.
This does lead to an interesting general point - I think we are all aware of the stereotypical portrayal of a Jewish man as having a large nose. No surprises there. But if one wants to caricature a person that is a Jew and has a big nose is that automatically anti-Semitic? Some might take that position. And if that is generally held, does that mean that one cannot caricature any Jewish people that have large noses?
Taking it back to the OP cartoon, if the artist had drawn Sharp as he is there but without the squid and the coins, would that have been ok? You previously mentioned the reference to Goldman Sachs (GS) and suggested that link (thanks to the obvious Jewish names) was also meant to be anti-Semitic, but Sharp worked for GS for over 20 years and was the PM's boss at that firm. So mention of GS is germane to the cartoon and political situation. Does that still mean that mentioning GS in the cartoon is anti-Semitic?
One can very quickly see that at some point, it becomes almost impossible to caricature Sharp for fear of some part being considered as anti-Semitic. Which means that Jewish people could be considered immune from caricature. And that must surely be as wrong as those that would caricature them in an anti-Semitic way.
Satirising public figures has a long and important history in the UK and we should be careful not to lose the ability to poke fun at the Establishment using satire and caricature. Visiting from rrsport.co.uk
2012 RRS SDV6
2008 RRS TDV8
"When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die! You don't know who's children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they were always going to have to do from the very beginning: SIT DOWN AND TALK!"
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| 3rd May 2023 4:57 pm |
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LT
Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: South West
Posts: 23866
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RRSTDV8 wrote:
One can very quickly see that at some point, it becomes almost impossible to caricature Sharp for fear of some part being considered as anti-Semitic. Which means that Jewish people could be considered immune from caricature. And that must surely be as wrong as those that would caricature them in an anti-Semitic way.
No, because that wasn't the case with this cartoon as obvious (to those who know) other antisemitic symbols were used.
As I said earlier- "Just as if Sharp had been black and the cartoon had caricatured him with exaggerated simian features and clutching a bunch of bananas would have been textbook racism." 2006 D3 HSE (Original & still the best)-GONE
2010 D4 HSE (A bit bling)-GONE
2014 D4 HSE (Almost too bling)-GONE
2015 D4 HSE (A heated what?)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Written Off)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Surely the last!) PD1881 rims-GONE
2017 FFRR SDV8 Autobiography (now semi-retired)
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| 3rd May 2023 5:22 pm |
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RRSTDV8
Member Since: 07 Apr 2014
Location: Here
Posts: 13606
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LT wrote:RRSTDV8 wrote:
One can very quickly see that at some point, it becomes almost impossible to caricature Sharp for fear of some part being considered as anti-Semitic. Which means that Jewish people could be considered immune from caricature. And that must surely be as wrong as those that would caricature them in an anti-Semitic way.
No, because that wasn't the case with this cartoon as obvious (to those who know) other antisemitic symbols were used.
As I said earlier- "Just as if Sharp had been black and the cartoon had caricatured him with exaggerated simian features and clutching a bunch of bananas would have been textbook racism."
But this is the issue - one can always find someone that knows that an image can mean something else.
In this cartoon, we had Sharp's own features caricatured - fair game to all, presumably. We also had the squid - ok, to some that has anti-Semitic references, and what else? The GS box? Already discussed. The gold coins? Reference to the monies that changed hands and that led to Sharp's eventual resignation. Or is that fact that gold is money and Jews are historically linked with money enough to prevent that part of the image being used? See where it goes? Eventually you are unable to use any imagery because there will always be someone who says "that is [negative issue]".
Which brings us back to ban them all or ban none?
I'd rather the occasional bad 'un get through than all of the good 'uns be thrown out. Visiting from rrsport.co.uk
2012 RRS SDV6
2008 RRS TDV8
"When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die! You don't know who's children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they were always going to have to do from the very beginning: SIT DOWN AND TALK!"
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| 3rd May 2023 5:41 pm |
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LT
Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: South West
Posts: 23866
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The cartoon was not and is not banned, it was published and later retracted.
Richard Sharp was fair game for a cartoonist, that’s unquestionable.
What is questionable, and in my opinion indefensible, is the cartoonists use of historical antisemitic caricatures, including those published by the Nazis, as well as references to contemporary antisemitic tropes in the cartoon. None of which were necessary to deride Sharp’s situation. 2006 D3 HSE (Original & still the best)-GONE
2010 D4 HSE (A bit bling)-GONE
2014 D4 HSE (Almost too bling)-GONE
2015 D4 HSE (A heated what?)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Written Off)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Surely the last!) PD1881 rims-GONE
2017 FFRR SDV8 Autobiography (now semi-retired)
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| 4th May 2023 10:01 am |
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