I'll not include the cartoon itself in case it actually IS offensive to Jews in general https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65438581
But to me it shows an almost "Bill Tidy" depiction of the departing BBC boss whilst Sunak gets the Venetian "Dottore"/Pinocio treatment and Boris is the maggot king, the latter 2 being, IMHO, greater digs at their characters.
Discuss?.
Dean
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30th Apr 2023 8:24 am
RRSTDV8
Member Since: 07 Apr 2014
Location: Here
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It appears that the cartoon used imagery that ticks a number of the wrong boxes and has rightly been taken down and apologies issued. Likely someone in the editorial team will get a proper telling off or may even be sacked.
I must admit to not knowing that the squid is used as an anti-Semitic trope. Every day is a school day.
There is an interesting question raised by such cartoons - do we allow all or do we ban all? I don't think it's reasonable to say "you can show cartoons lampooning Christians or Muslims but not Jews". It's also worth pointing out that one can be anti a Jew but not anti Jews. One can hate an individual without hating an entire group with whom that individual shares a single characteristic of birth.
One thing that Israel has been very good at is conflating the dislike of an Israeli policy with anti-Semitism. I think that this is part of Labour's problem - some of the party dislike what Israel is doing to the Palestinians but that has been equated to being anti-Semitic. Note: I have no doubt there are anti-Semitic views in the Labour Party and, no doubt, in the Tories and other Parties too. But the conflation has meant that anything "anti a particular Jew" is also seen as "anti all Jews", and that is clearly not the case (at least not always the case).
It's a very thorny subject indeed.Visiting from rrsport.co.uk
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30th Apr 2023 10:53 am
JordsDisco
Member Since: 22 May 2020
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 1616
I’ve seen the cartoon and I am struggling to see why anyone would take offence and consider it anti semitic at the actual caricature of the former chairman of the BBC. There again, I am not reading anything into it positive or negative.
What next, no cartoon of King Charles with a big nose and ears?
Also see no one complained about the caricature of Boris, which I’d consider is actually more offensive despite the fact I don’t like the guy.
IMHO it’s people looking for an excuse to have a pop. Save the bile for something thats more worthwhile and actually needs highlighting. This is right off the Richter pettiness scale.
The squid reference was not aimed at Jews per se, but at Goldman Sachs
Quote:
Where Did the Vampire Squid Come From?
November 18, 2009 by Jan Herman
I didn’t want to post this item, especially because I have no interest in writing anything that might be misconstrued as a defense of Goldman Sachs. But has anybody besides my staff of thousands — Bill Osborne, to be precise — noticed that Matt Taibbi’s description of Goldman Sachs as “a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money,” bears a peculiar resemblance to this cartoon? (It’s from Der Stürmer.)
.
Dean
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30th Apr 2023 1:43 pm
astonbuilder
Member Since: 29 Sep 2006
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RRSTDV8 wrote:
It appears that the cartoon used imagery that ticks a number of the wrong boxes and has rightly been taken down and apologies issued. .
Except an apology hasn't really been issued maybe? Yes, a 1000 word apology appeared in print and then the same apologist posted on their twitter account thanks of all the support given for something he didn't mean that was interpreted wrongly by all those offended. So not an apology really
3rd May 2023 7:02 am
LT
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A squid or octopus is a common antisemitic motif, used to depict a supposed Jewish conspiracy with its tentacles wrapped around whatever parts of society the Jews supposedly control. Especially money/finance/banking.2006 D3 HSE (Original & still the best)-GONE
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3rd May 2023 7:43 am
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I thought this was yet another attempt at a funny pic thread, “last” one prob being locked.
Pretty crass and IMHO, lazy cartoon-making. I didn't even know he was Jewish and don't see how highlighting that was in any way relevant. Whoever in the editorial team approved it must be pretty naïve and/or stupid and/or antisemitic.
Wayne is spot-on when he describes politicians conflating Israeli policy and Judaism.
I recently met someone called Jack Hughes who had never heard of Emil Zola.
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3rd May 2023 8:02 am
pjm-84
Member Since: 04 Oct 2016
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 2592
Quote:
Pretty crass and IMHO, lazy cartoon-making. I didn't even know he was Jewish and don't see how highlighting that was in any way relevant. Whoever in the editorial team approved it must be pretty naïve and/or stupid and/or antisemitic.
Agree..... however it is the Guardian. Keep going left
3rd May 2023 8:18 am
RRSTDV8
Member Since: 07 Apr 2014
Location: Here
Posts: 13550
astonbuilder wrote:
RRSTDV8 wrote:
It appears that the cartoon used imagery that ticks a number of the wrong boxes and has rightly been taken down and apologies issued. .
Except an apology hasn't really been issued maybe? Yes, a 1000 word apology appeared in print and then the same apologist posted on their twitter account thanks of all the support given for something he didn't mean that was interpreted wrongly by all those offended. So not an apology really
It goes back to the point I made earlier in the thread - we either ban all satire or none. If we're going to pick and choose the ones that we're comfortable with then we're effectively banning all satire because there will always be someone that isn't happy.
It's interesting that the Mail on Sunday published the cartoon in its entirety whilst calling for heads to roll. Is that any better than the original posting of the cartoon? If it's so offensive, why republish it unless only for their own gain. I might suggest that that is much worse than the original decision to publish.
There is a genuine issue here - we've regularly dismissed the idea of "cancel culture" (I think when it's been brought up most of us on here have been against it) - this wishing to prevent certain satire because we don't like it is just an extension of that. I have little doubt that there would have been very little outcry had the picture involved the satirising of a well known Muslim, for example, or even the Archbishop of Canterbury. As I said previously, disliking one Jewish person does not make one anti-Semitic. Neither does disliking the policies of the Israeli Government.
Was the cartoon in bad taste? Yes, I think it was. Do I think lots of other things that are published are in bad taste? Yes, I do. Is the answer to ban everything? No, it isn't. The answer, in my opinion, is to show by reasoned argument why the thing is wrong/in bad taste. A cry of "anti-Semitism" is no better than a cry of "Islamophobia" or "racism" just because something is uncomfortable for a particular person/group to read.
edit: this isn't aimed at you, astonbuilder, it's a general point Visiting from rrsport.co.uk
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It could have made the point without being anti-semitic.
No publications reproduced the Charlie Hebdo cartoon, despite their bile against the terrorism and the "Je suis Charlie" movements. Are some things beyond satire merely because violence is inevitable? I don't think that there is a law that says so - it is down to self-censoring, in which case the zealots have won.
Dianne Abbot's recent antisemitic gaffe may well have expressed opinions that are acceptable in her circles.
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3rd May 2023 8:35 am
RRSTDV8
Member Since: 07 Apr 2014
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If I hadn't known beforehand that the picture had alleged anti-Semitic aspects, I'd have just looked at it as a poor caricature of Sharp and laughed at the Boris bit. But then I don't know the anti-Semitic imagery because I have no interest in anti-Semitism. Why? Because I'm not anti-Semitic nor have I had to face anti-Semitism as I'm not of Jewish descent. Perhaps I shall spend some time looking in to the issue further.
The issue of violence as censorship is an interesting one, and I agree with you that it allows the zealots to win if it is allowed to succeed.
Was Dianne Abbott being anti-Semitic? She said that people that aren't black (in effect) don't suffer from racism. That's not anti-Semitic, it's simple truth - Jews aren't a "race" and thus don't experience racism.
That could be considered a semantic argument, of course, because both racism and anti-Semitism are basically hatred. But in that case, every group that is hated experiences racism. Is one hatred worse than another? Wouldn't it be simpler to just call things out for what they are - hatred? Does defining the hatred as a particular brand not in some part say "this is worse than those other issues"? Heck, I don't know!Visiting from rrsport.co.uk
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3rd May 2023 10:42 am
pjm-84
Member Since: 04 Oct 2016
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 2592
Quote:
Was Dianne Abbott being anti-Semitic? She said that people that aren't black (in effect) don't suffer from racism.
Always annoys when a black persons states that they can not be racist and then proceeds to use racist slurs.
Ah, yes. Diane Abbot, who once said that overall, Mao did more good than bad.
'Racism' was also called 'prejudice'. I think this is a better term.
As long ago as 1911, Booker T Washington said "I am afraid that there is a certain class of race-problem solvers who don't want the patient to get well, because as long as the disease holds out they have not only an easy means of making a living, but also an easy medium through which to make themselves prominent before the public."
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3rd May 2023 11:08 am
RRSTDV8
Member Since: 07 Apr 2014
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"Prejudice" is better because it covers the fact that the issues goes both ways. True, "racism" also goes both ways but it has become associated with whites being bad to blacks and getting people to accept that it means the opposite too is going to be difficult.Visiting from rrsport.co.uk
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