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Hardware
 


Member Since: 28 Jun 2016
Location: Hiding under the M60
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England 2011 Discovery 4 3.0 SDV6 XS Auto Sumatra BlackDiscovery 4
Question for OvalAutos ...

thought i'd ask in a new thread so as not to pollute the sweepstake one (which has potential to be funny perhaps ? ).

How on earth did your first crank-job get caused by a non-fitment of oil-filter ? seems to me anyone doing their own servicing would be keen to do everything right … so was it a garage that did it ?
 .


Dean
====================================
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Post #20165308th Jan 2019 8:34 pm
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J@mes
 


Member Since: 10 Nov 2008
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England 2014 Discovery 4 3.0 SDV6 XS Auto Corris GreyDiscovery 4

Would also seem to me that a garage wouldn't want to risk ruining it's reputation by goosing someones engine though an incorrectly fitted filter.


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Post #20165378th Jan 2019 8:45 pm
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OvalAutos
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OvalAutos wrote:
DG wrote:
Mikey makes an interesting point Idea ....if we are factoring in other models which feature the V6 then that could drastically increase my number of estimated failures in the 'normal' anticipated %age Very Happy

It would be helpful if Oval could advise on the model and age the failures come from when the time comes Thumbs Up


This one was from a 64 plate D4 with 72k on the clock. Only 1 service entry on Topix from last October @ 71k. I'm guessing the owner has some legal standing on this one Neutral


I don't think the owner forgot to put an oil filter in and I'm not saying which garage did the service less than 1000 miles ago, except it wasn't a main dealer!

Joe
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Joe

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Post #20166899th Jan 2019 10:26 am
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OvalAutos
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Re: Question for OvalAutos ...

Hardware17 wrote:
thought i'd ask in a new thread so as not to pollute the sweepstake one (which has potential to be funny perhaps ? ).

How on earth did your first crank-job get caused by a non-fitment of oil-filter ? seems to me anyone doing their own servicing would be keen to do everything right … so was it a garage that did it ?


Judging by the Censored in the sump, it makes sense that without a filter it is going to do some damage. Don't forget that all bearing surfaces float on microns of oil. Anything larger in the oil and it is going to get stuck somewhere.
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Joe

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Post #20166919th Jan 2019 10:30 am
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Disco_Mikey
 


Member Since: 29 May 2007
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Scotland 2005 Discovery 3 TDV6 HSE Auto Cairns BlueDiscovery 3

The filter he,ps create oil pressure. Without oil pressure, the oil can’t reach all parts of the engine Thumbs Up
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Post #20168109th Jan 2019 4:07 pm
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Gareth
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United Kingdom 2013 Discovery 4 3.0 SDV6 HSE Lux Auto Fuji WhiteDiscovery 4

Does that mean on the TDV6 that the oil filter is downstream of the bearings? If a piece of Censored got into the sump, and sucked through the strainer into the pump, it would have to pass through the bearings before it got to the filter at the top of the engine?

My only experience is with the older Land Rover engine (series), where the filter is the next thing the oil passes through after leaving the pump. Once its passed through that it goes into the oilways, through the crank and bearings, up to the head, flows out of the rockers, and back down to the sump via the cam shaft and tappets!
  
Post #20168299th Jan 2019 5:12 pm
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Hardware
 


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England 2011 Discovery 4 3.0 SDV6 XS Auto Sumatra BlackDiscovery 4

some systems have a bypass mechanism so the flow though the filter isn't ALL of the flow. is that true of the s/tdv6 ? if so a missing filter would not split the flow correctly … so wrong pressure AND lumps re-circulating.
  
Post #20168689th Jan 2019 6:39 pm
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PCT3
 


Member Since: 13 May 2017
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England 2007 Discovery 3 TDV6 HSE Auto Zambezi SilverDiscovery 3

You are possibly referring to a bypass oil system which I thought was discarded in the early 70s, I believe all systems are now full flow so oil is filtered before use in the engine, the td5 also had a spinner filter to help separate particals
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Post #20169979th Jan 2019 11:58 pm
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OvalAutos
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The oil filter housing on the 3.0 does not contain any bypass system. The only bypass is the pressure relief valve in the pump itself.

The oil flow is; pickup pipe (with strainer), pump, filter, block gallery, heads.

What the filter housing does do is maintain a volume of oil between the pump and filter. This volume is mostly in the housing due to a valve held closed by the filter being in place. It is this valve that allows the oil in the housing to drain out when changing the filter, so you don't end up with the vee full of oil. The oil between the housing valve and the pump is held by the fact that the valve is closed and does not allow the oil to drain back down (a bit like when a barman is making your cocktail and uses his finger on the end of a straw to hold the liquid in the straw to bring it to his mouth to taste).

Oil volume in the block gallery is maintained by spring valves in the piston spray jets. Some oil is lost to seepage past the bearing shells, but a reservoir above the jets holds enough to feed the mains during startup.

Their is no check valve in the heads to stop the oil drain back to the block (and seeping past the bearings). This is why you hear the hydraulic tappets for a few seconds at startup, especially on older/worn engines. It does not necessarily mean the crank bearings have not received a flow of oil.

Oil pressure (measured at the pump) is determined by the performance of the pump. This should not be confused by mass flow rate.

Q/ So whats happens when you don't have a filter fitted?

A/ It takes longer for a flow of oil to get to the bearings during startup as the filter is dry all the way down to the sump pickup.

The oil held in the pump also acts as a seal between the pump gears and the pump housing. No oil, no seal and the pump has to work harder/faster to draw the oil up from the sump.

Don't forget that the oil is not only a lubricant, but it coolant. As the oil drains away, the bearing surfaces will get hot.

On a side note, I'll be doing a comprehensive write up at a later date on why oil pumps are deemed to have *failed*.

..
 .
Joe

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Post #201716010th Jan 2019 3:33 pm
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sasdiscos
 


Member Since: 22 Feb 2013
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United Kingdom 2010 Discovery 4 3.0 TDV6 HSE Auto Bali BlueDiscovery 4

Can i ask, the crank failure is due to bearings spinning and blocking oil ways.

Do the bearings spin due to lack of oil, oil pressure or faulty parts? Obviously all are applicable but what is actually happening in the tdv6.

I work with and rebuild refrigeration compressors and I understand how it all works but im just trying to understand why they fail.

I read posts and see vids of engines knocking that have thrown a rod, ticking, bag of spanners etc and I know it can't be second guessed but how long before bearing spin to failure do you get?

What I work with only run at 2700rpm max so a fkd bearing may not manifest itself for maybe a year, upon when oil pressure gets lost as there is so much play its just pouring out the crank. However the cranks are massive and they are driven by a 300 - 400 kw motor so it can run with a snapped rod, the only way I might notice is that the amps are down or the performance has dropped off.

With an engine you kinda listening all the time, so again, how long from tick tick to boom?

Steve
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Post #201720310th Jan 2019 5:48 pm
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OvalAutos
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Firstly, lets define crank failure and crank unusable.

Crank failure is when it has snapped. Crank unusable is when it is still whole, but can't be reused. This could be because a regrind won't take out scoring or ovality, is bent, damaged from detached conrods.....and so on....

Nearly every engine we do is the result of bottom end problems. Not everyone is the result of a crank failure. Sometimes they are just down to big end wear. Sometimes they are due to spun mains cutting off the oil flow to other bearings.

You never hear a main bearing spinning, but you do hear the resulting lack of oil flow to whichever big end(s) is being starved. The noise can be first and last thing you hear before it too late.

In nearly every case, a snapped crank is due to bearing movement. Notice I didn't say spin. Sometimes they only move just enough to cut off the oil feed. How quickly they 'move' to this position is anybodies guess. Maybe they creep, maybe they jump. You can tell when a bearing has spun or just moved by looking at the back surface.

Incidentally, I've only ever seen the crank snap in the same place. Sometimes with just #2 main bearing movement/spin and other times with more than just one bearing.

In my humble opinion it's a bit misleading to blame the crank. It snaps because something else has failed. Sure it can break, but so can your leg when you fall out of a tree. So is the tree to blame or your leg for not being able to cope with something it wasn't designed to do?

Joe
 .
Joe

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Post #201746711th Jan 2019 12:22 pm
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robpenrose
 


Member Since: 12 Jan 2016
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United Kingdom 2010 Discovery 4 3.0 TDV6 HSE Auto Stornoway GreyDiscovery 4

some nice information Joe.

So in your opinion, is there anything that can be done, preventative maintenance (even if intrusive) to stop this happening, and resulting in a damaged engine.

The reason i ask is because i know BMW M power engines can suffer from spun bearings and bearing wear. It seems that many people, as a preventative maintenance get the shells changed.

https://www.performancetechnic.com/blog/20...d-bearings S85 is the BMW V10

Anyway of protecting the TD/SDV6?
 

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Post #201748311th Jan 2019 12:47 pm
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OvalAutos
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Funny that. We had an insurance engineer out yesterday to inspect the latest failed crank and he said he sees loads of BMWs like this Shocked

There is nothing I have found that can prevent shells from moving other than to go down the race engine route and screw them in place. Neutral Other than that, just treat the engine with kid gloves and don't thrash it.

The only thing I can recommend is to fit an oil pressure gauge and mount it next to the clocks. Get a good one that reads in either psi or BAR and flashes if the pressure drops below whatever threshold you set because unless you're going to keep your eyes on it, you might not notice a drop in pressure.

I like these gauges http://www.spa-uk.co.uk/Product/PressurePr...%20(DG219) because you can measure the pressure in two places.
 .
Joe

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Post #201749511th Jan 2019 1:33 pm
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NJSS
 


Member Since: 06 May 2009
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United Kingdom 2016 Discovery 4 3.0 SDV6 Landmark LE Auto Waitomo GreyDiscovery 4
Accusump - pressurised oil reservoir

Joe; another question please?

In the past I have used an Accusump on my rally cars: https://www.cantonracingproducts.com/accus...gJG2_D_BwE

It is a pressurised oil reservoir that is connected to the engine's oil system, designed to deliver oil to an engine before starting to eliminate dry start scuffing (pre-oiling) and to deliver oil whenever the normal engine oil pressure drops, to protect against engine damage during demanding conditions, such as high G braking, cornering etc... It also protects against low oil pressure caused by low oil level...

I have thought that this would be ideal to counteract dry start scuffing caused by the Stop/Start system; for the time being I have eliminated that by turning it off.

Your thoughts please?

NJSS
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Post #201751111th Jan 2019 2:55 pm
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OvalAutos
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Thats extreme and rather costly Shocked

I put 4 modified engines out in the wild last year. Each one had something different done to it. I'm not going to say what was done, but the most 'extreme' failed after 800 miles. Before anybody starts jumping up & down about this, the failed unit was in my own car and the other 3 were done with the knowledge of the customer, at a massive discount with an open ended warranty until I pull them out to inspect.

The 3 units that are still living are showing some interesting results, but each is different. FYI, each donor vehicle has a GSM data logger.

At this stage, all I would suggest is the correct oil and change regularly. We only use Castrol Edge Pro.

If you haven't worked it out yet, I'm a bit of engineering nutter and to paraphrase Matt Damon (The Martian) "I'm going to have to ENGINEER the Censored out of this"

..

..
 .
Joe

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Post #201757611th Jan 2019 5:11 pm
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