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simon
Member Since: 11 Jan 2005
Location: Shropshire
Posts: 18296
  
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Manually, its the only way unless you have A NEWER MANUAL D3 THAN MINE or an auto 'box.
Last edited by simon on 17th Aug 2007 1:16 pm. Edited 1 time in total
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 17th Aug 2007 6:24 am |
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Slimer
Site Moderator
Member Since: 06 Jan 2005
Location: Last Exit to Nowhere
Posts: 16295
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Or an 07MY  The End
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| 17th Aug 2007 8:44 am |
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ronp
Member Since: 29 Nov 2006
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 15214
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simon wrote:ronp wrote:LR Dealer had it in, stripped, cleaned & lubricated it and billed me £111 in total
So, did they change the pads on the brakes as well as fix the EPB issue ? Be worth a check before you flame em 
No Pad change, just Labour, Brake Cleaner & VAT. I was a normal heterosexual chap, but in these new woke awakenings I now identify as a Wardrobe.
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| 17th Aug 2007 9:10 am |
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ronp
Member Since: 29 Nov 2006
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 15214
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catweasel wrote:how do you blokes release your EPB? do you do it manually or let it auto release
generally Auto, but Manually on a steep downhill gradient. I was a normal heterosexual chap, but in these new woke awakenings I now identify as a Wardrobe.
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| 17th Aug 2007 9:12 am |
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NoDo$h
Member Since: 02 May 2006
Location: Finding new and exciting ways to milk badgers.
Posts: 19689
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Mine did the squeal again this morning 
Thinking back over when the problem comes in, it seems to happen when I'm on a gradient. This morning I parked facing uphill, had my foot on the brake and put the transmission into park. I put the EPB on, the red light came on to show it was engaged and I released the footbrake. At this point the car settled back on the transmission and the squeal started.
A couple of weeks back it happened in very similar circumstances, except facing downhill. Again the car had come to a halt on the footbrake, I had kept the footbrake on, put the car in park, applied the EPB and when the red light came on released the footbrake. Car settled forward against the transmission and the howling started.
The previous instances were also on gradients but I was in heavy traffic so was holding the car on the footbrake in drive, applied the EPB and put the car in neutral before releasing the footbrake.
All this suggests the EPB light comes on before the brake is properly engaged. If there is any play in your EPB, releasing the footbrake at this point causes the scream of protest. Regardless of timing, a properly adjusted EPB shouldn't do this, which begs the question of how frequently they should be adjusted? I've done around 10,000 miles since February and this will be the third time it goes in for adjustment.
Can anyone tell me if they think I'm using the EPB incorrectly? If I am then I need to change this so suggestions welcome. If not, should I expect Land Rover to sort this under warranty again or do I need to budget an extra £100 every 3,000 miles of ownership? I know it's not considered "kind" to say no these days, but no. Just no, ok? And if it's not ok, still no.
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| 17th Aug 2007 9:35 am |
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catweasel
Member Since: 05 May 2006
Location: Bundaleer
Posts: 4805
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you need to learn how to do it yourself by the sounds of it. maybe you guys should have a maintenance training day or something similar.
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| 17th Aug 2007 9:40 am |
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ronp
Member Since: 29 Nov 2006
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 15214
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ND, do you get the red and amber lights on the dash [one flashing] and a display message? I was a normal heterosexual chap, but in these new woke awakenings I now identify as a Wardrobe.
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| 17th Aug 2007 9:51 am |
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NoDo$h
Member Since: 02 May 2006
Location: Finding new and exciting ways to milk badgers.
Posts: 19689
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Not initially. What usually happens is that I get the howl and immediately manually disengage so I don't get the warning. I then move the car a few inches and reapply the EPB without problems. If I'm not quick enough to disengage then I get the chime and the warning message. Once I've had the first howl (typically 2-3000 miles after the last stripdown) I then find I get it with increasing regularity over the coming week or so before I get the full red/amber, chimes and message.
Catweasel, I agree that is one solution, but is it one you should really have to apply on a supposedly robust car of this age, mileage and use? I find it telling that the teams entering D3s in the Paris-Dakar have stripped out the EPB and would be delighted if LR accepted the inherent weakness of the design and came up with a manual replacement that could be retrofitted. I know it's not considered "kind" to say no these days, but no. Just no, ok? And if it's not ok, still no.
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| 17th Aug 2007 9:59 am |
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Gareth
Site Moderator
Member Since: 07 Dec 2004
Location: Bramhall
Posts: 26701
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Mr Dosh, I concurr with everything you have described. This is exactly how mine goes wrong, and as my drive is on a slope, I get the exact chain of events you describe. The only difference is that sometimes it can be 10 or 20 seconds after I've switched off that is starts to scream.
I have never gone more than 10000 miles without a dealer visit to fix or adjust the brake. There are a few theories banding around at the moment, and whatever the cause is, the result is the brake shoes are too far from the drum, and the actuator is reaching the limit of its travel. The scream is the protection clutch arrangement on the motor which slips to protect the mechanism. What is causing the rapid un-adjusment of a recently serviced brake is the mystery.
The other issue is that an un-adjusted brake will let mud and stones in between the drum and shoe and this will wear the drum and shoes away.
There is another symptom where the brake won't release properly and binds. This also wears away the drum and shoes. This would seem to be a cable issue. If the cables are full of water/mud they get sticky like the brake cables on a bicycle and don't allow the shoes to retract.
The thing is, should it be chargeable? I think not, as the vehicle has to be fit for purpose and its made to drive off-road. By its very nature the EPB is a static brake, this means it should never be subjected to normal brake wear like the pads and discs. It is applied when the vehicle is already stationary, and released before it moves away. Even if you apply the EPB whilst the vehicle is in motion, the software in the car uses the vehicle brakes to slow the car very rapidly, then applies the EPB at vehicle stop. (Don't try this with other cars behind you!) The park brake shoes and the drums on the inside of the rear discs in my opinion should not wear out in normal service. The wear is caused as a consquence of a bad design or failing in another part of the system.
If the dealers are trying to get around this issue by replacing the discs/shoes/pads at owners expense, and not dealing with the underlying issues, then the problem is going to repeat itself.
I have never been charged for a PB clean and adjustment, but it is the only consistent problem I have that worries me when the warranty expires in November. Car is now on 82k, and the rear discs and pads will require changing soon.
I want the latest PB fix I have had, to prove itself before I pay for that work to be done, or it will wear out my new discs too.
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| 17th Aug 2007 10:08 am |
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NoDo$h
Member Since: 02 May 2006
Location: Finding new and exciting ways to milk badgers.
Posts: 19689
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Gareth, I've just been talking to the service manager at Westover about this before you posted. He pretty much repeated your view; the squeal is the actuator (glorified wiper motor) but what's causing that to squeal could be cable, brake shoes, shoe adjustment or dirt ingress related (but a properly adjusted brake shouldn't let dirt in), and nobody yet seems to know what is cauusing these items to go out of adjustment. He explained that Land Rover are tightening their stance where problems are solely worn brake components but are still looking on a case-by-case basis. He's firmly on our side where these problems are down to design/manufacture (it has to be to fail at sub-5000 mile intervals) but did point out that on one car they had in they filled a dustpan with the dirt and grit they removed from the EPB casing and assembly, which confirms the importance of giving the underside of the car a sluice every now and then.
Reading between the lines, I get the idea that cases that aren't paid by LR tend to be down to poor practice at the dealers, failing to adequately explain the work to LR's warranty team or simply doing the quick-fix of replacing brake shoes without seeking the cause of the wear. That and inadequate cleaning would seem to be the main causes of warranty payment being declined.
So far the actuator itself hasn't been changed on my car and neither have the shoes, but it has been cleaned and adjusted back to spec each time. We've agreed my car will go in in to them in late September when their bodyshop have finished with it (for a variety of reasons it's the earliest mutually convenient time) and they are going to throw away the Land Rover service manual and go back to basic engineering principles to try and get to the root cause. In the meantime I will have a look myself using AndrewS' stripdown instructions and TFC's summary of possible causes to see if anything obvious springs to mind. I know it's not considered "kind" to say no these days, but no. Just no, ok? And if it's not ok, still no.
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| 17th Aug 2007 10:35 am |
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DiscoStu
Member Since: 09 Apr 2006
Location: London
Posts: 11412
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NoDo$h wrote:but did point out that on one car they had in they filled a dustpan with the dirt and grit they removed from the EPB casing and assembly, which confirms the importance of giving the underside of the car a sluice every now and then
Just 'washing the underside' does not clean out the EPB assembly though. It has to be stripped and cleaned. If it lets dirt in to such an extent that you have to strip and clean every time you go off road, then it is a design fault (and quite a bad one at that). This suggests the car isn't fit for purpose (i.e. off roading). To then charge people to put it right is wrong. Does it state in the manual that you have to clean the EPB assembly after off-roading.? Does it show you how to strip it down and reassemble?  Disco 5 HSE Lux
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peyiqaJrmMU
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| 17th Aug 2007 12:51 pm |
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NoDo$h
Member Since: 02 May 2006
Location: Finding new and exciting ways to milk badgers.
Posts: 19689
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I haven't got the handbook in front of me, but IIRC there is reference to ensuring you make an effort to clean the gunk off after offroading. I agree it's unacceptable that dirt gets into the unit as a result of design/manufacturing error, but if you have to take a chisel to the actuator housing to get the mud off there is man element of user error, albeit one that would normally be mitigated by good design.
I'll have a rummage on Owner Info and see if I can find the relevant section. I know it's not considered "kind" to say no these days, but no. Just no, ok? And if it's not ok, still no.
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| 17th Aug 2007 1:02 pm |
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NoDo$h
Member Since: 02 May 2006
Location: Finding new and exciting ways to milk badgers.
Posts: 19689
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Quote:P 229 of the 06my handbook:
Cleaning after off-road drivingEnsure that the vehicle and underside is
cleaned soon after off-road driving, taking
particular care to clean areas where mud and
debris has compacted.
Quote:P 206 of the same handbook
DRIVING IN ARDUOUS CONDITIONS
When a vehicle is operated in extremely arduous conditions, more frequent attention must be paid to servicing requirements.
For example: If your vehicle experiences deep wading conditions, even DAILY servicing could be necessary to ensure the continued safe and reliable operation of the vehicle
Arduous driving conditions include:
Driving in dusty and/or sandy conditions
Driving on rough and/or muddy roads and/or wading
Not a get-out-of-jail card for Land Rover, but it's a reminder that we have a responsibility to look after our vehicles. I hold my hands up; I've tossed my toys from the pram in the past about faults where heavy-handed driving may have contributed to the problem. The EPB issue, however, is widespread and as yet poorly understood by Land Rover. An element of preventative work (cleaning) may help delay the onset of the problem, but it seems that any offroad use or even deep puddles are likely to contribute to premature failure of the EPB, which I don't think even Land Rover would consider is acceptable. I know it's not considered "kind" to say no these days, but no. Just no, ok? And if it's not ok, still no.
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| 17th Aug 2007 1:17 pm |
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