Red Merle wrote:

Jimbg: Who has told you that "D5 sales are through the roof"? You'd certainly need to be a very honest salesperson to say otherwise if it isn't the case.

Have they given you supporting evidence? (Genuine question)

I am basing it on the statement that they have sold or have strong interest ( how ever that is measured ) for a major chunk of their 2017 allocation.
They have also taken more orders for the car prior to any deliveries than for any other LR car.

It could of course all be cow manure!!

Red Merle wrote:

crews control wrote:

Either way... initial orders are irrelevant, it's how sales perform long term that really matters. There will always be a large number of people that want to have something new, but fashion is a fickle master.

That's true. Back in the Middle Ages, when the Rover SD1 was launched, you couldn't get hold of one for love nor money. Waiting lists were off the chart and if you were lucky enough to get a build slot within a reasonable time, discounts were non existent. But, within two years, you couldn't give them away!

Okay, it's not a perfect analogy; the SD1 was a radical and interesting design at launch, while the Disco 5 will be built to a much higher standard than the SD1 ever was. Let's wait and see...

I would have my old SDI Vitesse back against any D5 and that's saying something. LOVED IT like my D4 & D3 but D5 ?

jimbg wrote:

Red Merle wrote:

Jimbg: Who has told you that "D5 sales are through the roof"? You'd certainly need to be a very honest salesperson to say otherwise if it isn't the case.

Have they given you supporting evidence? (Genuine question)

I am basing it on the statement that they have sold or have strong interest ( how ever that is measured ) for a major chunk of their 2017 allocation.
They have also taken more orders for the car prior to any deliveries than for any other LR car.

It could of course all be cow manure!!

Lost for Words wrote:

Quote:

LR will bring out the "all new Defender". It won't appeal to Deafener owners. It will sell like hot cakes to people who want "off road cool". The dirty-rag brigade will cry in to their beers and LR will laugh all the way to the bank.

Yep, and I fear it might pass over us too. LR have left themselves a very large range to cover for the new Defender - I hope it doesn't end up being a poor compromise for all.

fat bloke wrote:

I would have my old SDI Vitesse back against any D5 and that's saying something. LOVED IT like my D4 & D3 but D5 ?

I only ever got to run the "standard", carb fed, V8 SD1. Would love to have tried a Vitesse! The most memorable trip in the SD1 was driving into town to get a new exhaust fitted; it sounded like it was ready for nascar!

jimbg wrote:

RM, LFW, RP you love your D3's and D4's but Land Rover are after the mass market now .

They will have to continually adapt to ensure they are making products for that market, but the same is true for any manufacturer for almost any product.

Having worked ( thankfully now retired ) in the electronics industry I am well aware of the fickleness of the market.

You may think they have got it wrong, but the pre-orders for the D5 are I am told through the roof.

If you are disappointed in the D5 for your particular needs then you need to look elsewhere or wait to see what the new Defender brings.

You can be sure Land Rover knew what they were doing and anticipated disappointing a small segment of their Discovery base.

Jim, we're not saying its "wrong" as in they won't sell. None of us, despite alternate reality parallel universe remain votery types suggesting otherwise, has suggested the D5 won't sell. It will, like hot cakes as I've said. It is arguably doing long term damage to the brand, but as I've and others have said JLR are going down the "mainstream" car maker route and are prepared to trash their brand values and history to get sales.

It is not right or wrong, it is integrity of the brand and whether in 10 years time that bites them on the as they are now, as you rightly pointed out, subject to the fickleness of the trendy buyers. Whilst McGovern and co keep hitting the sweeet spot for those sort of buyers then all is well. When he goes/retires etc will they be able to keep hitting the mark of beign "on trend"? Maybe, maybe not. If not, they've also lost the "traditional" Land Rover customers as well. Is it wise to alienate those loyalists who have followed you for decades? Isn't working for Jeremy Corbyn, and may not work for LR longer term

Look at LR's pre-2000 products, all had a strong engineering underpinning. The original RR was engineering led, with the Bache body designed later. The original Disco was a parts bin raid to tackle a market LR were not in, combined with Conran design. Yet here we are in 2016 with a 'Chief Engineer' unable to coherently explain in anything other than marketing the change from the revered split tailgate. This matters for those concerned about the long term direction of a company.

And while the D5 fan club think this is all just dinosaurs talking, some of us do understand both LR's history and branding. And the bigger business and automotive picture. Take the story of the Jeep Rubicon. This has already happened and reinforces the view that LR are in a bit of a bind with no dedicated off road vehicle. LR seem to be steering very clear of precisely the adventure and exploration and muddy Camel Trophy-esque activities that built their brand. Jeep had headed in the same direction and has a range full of Walmart wagons, yet they still make proper off roaders that not only underpin their brand but make money and sell. LR have lost that, and the D5 is just another step away from their history. That is our concern, in addition to the D5 not appearing to offer what the D4 did. The Rubicon was proper engineers not talking marketing drivel but making a vehicle people wanted, despite the bean counters and marketing numpties saying there was no market for it. It sells and is profitable, and gives the halo effect to the Jeep brand. What is giving LR its halo at the moment? The Evoque?

There is a real fear the new Defender will also be a lifestyle vehicle tricked up to look macho outside the tanning salon. We sincerely hope not.

In simple terms, Jeep went through this cycle of shiny, trendy sanitised post-truth stuff, hiding their heritage that pre-dates Land Rover, pretending WW2 never happened, pretending Jeep's weren't simple, muddy and practical because someone in a shiny suit and overpriced bouffant decided no one wanted it any more. When real engineers with a real understanding of the brand and the vehicles fought to offer a 'proper' practical and capable Jeep it turned out there was a large market for proper off roaders. LR seemed to have ignored this important and free lesson.

jimbg wrote:

Red Merle wrote:

Jimbg: Who has told you that "D5 sales are through the roof"? You'd certainly need to be a very honest salesperson to say otherwise if it isn't the case.

Have they given you supporting evidence? (Genuine question)

I am basing it on the statement that they have sold or have strong interest ( how ever that is measured ) for a major chunk of their 2017 allocation.
They have also taken more orders for the car prior to any deliveries than for any other LR car.

It could of course all be cow manure!!

J77 wrote:

The LR people were a bit up themselves, I just dealt with my dealer on my night, I was in full work gear and LR didn't even bother to acknowledge me.

Red Merle wrote:

I wonder if the pre orders for the new car will be enough to cover the lost sales while the Discovery has been out of productions for nearly 6 months! Remember, the old car would have sold around 25,000 units in that time. The dealers will need to take firm pre-orders, equivalent to 6 months sales, simply to stand still.