Member Since: 31 Jan 2020
Location: Bucks
Posts: 15
MS Bus faults, Battery and charging issues
I have had ongoing issues with the loss of MS Bus appliances and, as this has so far foiled a "specialist diagnostics firm", I just wonder if anyone has come across this before.
Sorry that this post is lengthy, but I thought more details might be better than less:
I have printed fault code logs at the end which you can skip to.
New battery was fitted 26 Jan 2020. Faults started showing from 2nd February as Coms losses but they were very intermittent and never manifested as any physical issue (other than extremely occasionally the passenger door mirror would not fold first time when I locked the car).
The car is generally left on Charge (CTEK 10 AMP) and is wired to a body earth, not battery negative, so as to charge over the BMS. Specialists reckoned I should not use a charger, but millions do and even JLR sell a CTEK unit as an accessory?
Then in Early April (during lockdown so only intermittent short runs, but being charged) when we had warmer weather, noticed the External temperature readout on the central message centre would go to “- - - - “, aircon blowers would shut down, no control from heater controls and passenger door lock and mirrors were inoperative, followed by same on drivers side. After longer runs I would also see the digital clock and other information in the message screen disappear. Radio/satnav would always work. If the car is shut down while the symptoms were showing, I get all types of warning messages, and the instrument panel would sometimes be completely dead when restarted and would only come back on after driving a short distance.
Sometimes I can drive the car for many miles without any symptoms. It is intermittent, but becoming more frequent
Fault codes were the same as from February, with some extras. Always only communications losses
I did notice that short runs would seem to slightly deplete the battery (would go to orange on the CTEK indicator on the charging lead, but never to a worrying degree.
Car was booked in and then delivered to Specialists on 28 April. They were unable to find or duplicate the errors but considered that it may be a faulty Instrument panel and the other modules checked out as OK. The IPC had been updated using GAP and the specialists said that they were unable to interrogate it as the software was later than database and SDD would not play. They ordered a refurbished unit.
“New” IPC was fitted 13 May. They had not test driven the car, and the logged VIN in the refurbished clocks had not been changed to that of this car (hence the new fault code). The Mileage for my car did show correctly.
I had the same symptoms as before within a mile of leaving Specialists. Also noticed that there was a defective bulb on the speedo needle!
Car was then to be returned to them 26th May for the IPC to be sorted/replaced and further checks
On 28 May they phoned to say that replacement clocks were on order. More importantly they had also concluded that the issues were a result of incorrect charging while being driven. This was not apparent previously as they always had the car on a separate charger and only saw the problems when they switched to using the vehicle power. Insufficient Amps were being produced, or wrongly read by the BMS, and it was shutting down the heater etc . They concluded that Battery Management System was faulty and needed to be replaced, as well as suggesting that the battery was the wrong size and type and faulty at only 60% health ( for Amps, not Volts as it would charge to 12.7v?).
They did suggest that I should perhaps approach Halfords for having fitted a faulty and wrong spec battery. The battery was a wet 019 type 100ah 900A.
They suggested that I collect the car and they would order a BMS and “higher capacity” AGM battery. Hopefully those and the replacement clocks would be delivered by the following Wednesday, 3rd June. They had remarked that at that time JLR were not delivering and couriers were also problematic? I suggested that I could collect the BMS from the local main dealers if that would help, but they said that if I did, even on their behalf, they could not then provide a warranty. I collected the car.
I heard nothing back and called them on Friday 5th June. They had still not received the replacement clocks, BMS lead or Battery. We agreed that to save time/delay I would at least obtain and fit the BMS myself, and try to have Halfords swap battery under warranty. I ordered the BMS for collection on the Monday (next working day).
I also managed to convince Halfords to change the battery under warranty and fitted a 95AH 850 019 type AGM (is it even possible to get a higher spec capacity battery in this size?). By the way, both batteries were only showing a charge of 12.42v at Halfords, which they consider to be fully charged! I did of course fully charge the new battery when at home, and it does take a full charge to 12.8v, and holds charge
I fitted the new BMS (with JLR warranty), reset that for the new battery, and checked that the type was correctly set (H8HD*** option) using GAP IID Tool. Are there other options in SDD?
Almost immediately I had the same symptoms and faults.
Knowing that it now appeared to be charge related, I also started watching and logging live values for voltage, amps, battery health etc.
I also noticed that the car was gently draining the battery while being driven but I had expected that as part of the BMS learning the new battery after being reset. But it keeps happening off and on.
What I am seeing from the live data:
1. I can start driving sometimes and do many miles with the charging system behaving as I would consider to be normal. While cruising or accelerating ( or at idle), Amps and volts at the battery remain steady at about +3 A and 13’ish V, so a slight positive to trickle charge the battery. When decelerating the regenerative system kicks in and amps increase considerably and Voltage climbs to a max of 14.7v. The battery SoC increases gradually.
2. Sometimes, whether when restarting after a long journey, starting from when the car has been rested overnight. or part way through a journey, the levels across the battery drop considerably unless I am actually decelerating. At steady speed, Voltage might show as little as 12.2v and the current across the battery is about -20A. The SoC starts to drop (but I have not driven past/below 75%). After a few minutes or seconds, the heater etc start to shut off.
After driving for some distance under these circumstance, to say 75% SoC, the voltage charging will increase when cruising, to about high 12s, but current does not seem to increase. The battery will start to gain charge, but the symptoms will still be occurring
3. Often, when the symptoms occur, I can temporarily resolve the issues by coasting off the throttle for a long distance thereby increasing the amp and volt charging using the regenerative charging. As soon as I touch the throttle, charging drops and the symptoms come back
The faults and symptoms do seem to be related to charge.
The battery is fine (although this may affect its lifespan), the BMS is new, and the alternator is capable of providing the correct charge and current, I’ve seen it charge at up to 14.7v and 80A.
Assuming that the faults and the charging are related, and the symptoms are due to the car/BMS “seeing” too little current etc, either:
1. The alternator is not always working as instructed by the car or
2. The car is not always telling the alternator how much charge is required
I have not heard anything more from the specialists in reply. I am worried that they have given up, although they still owe me a set of replacement clocks!
Any ideas?
Many thanks for your time
Ade
23rd April 2020 before specialists had the car, and most of which had occurred off and on since February, but with no symptoms until beginning of April, even using heated seats etc
VIN: SALLAAAG5CA6*****
L319 - Discovery 4 2012
Vehicle scanned on 23-04-2020 16:28
Using IIDTool BT V4.0 B2691
BCM-Body Control
• U0155-00 (2F) Lost communication with instrument cluster control module
( on 23-04-2020 16:25:42 )
• U0164-00 (2E) Lost communication with heating ventilation and air conditioning control module
( on 23-04-2020 16:25:42 )
• U0200-00 (2F) Lost communication with the door control module B
( on 23-04-2020 16:25:42 at 87069 mi )
FCIM-HVAC Buttons
• U0155-00 (2F) Lost communication with instrument cluster control module
( on 23-04-2020 16:26:06 )
• U0164-00 (2E) Lost communication with heating ventilation and air conditioning control module
• U0166-00 (2F) Lost communication with auxiliary heater control module
( on 23-04-2020 16:25:58 )
• U0424-68 (2E) Invalid data received from heating, ventilation and air conditioning control module - Algorithm based failure - event information
HVAC-Ventilation
• U0010-88 (2E) Medium speed CAN communication bus - Bus signal/message failure - bus is off
( on 23-04-2020 16:25:42 at 87069 mi )
• U0166-87 (2F) Lost communication with auxiliary heater control module - Bus signal/message failure - missing a message
( on 23-04-2020 16:26:46 at 87070 mi )
IPC-Instrument Pack
• U0010-88 (2E) Medium speed CAN communication bus - Bus signal/message failure - bus is off
• U0140-00 (2E) Lost communication with body control module
( on 23-04-2020 16:25:41 at 87069 mi )
• U0164-00 (2E) Lost communication with heating ventilation and air conditioning control module
( on 23-04-2020 16:25:41 )
• U0184-00 (2E) Lost communication with audio unit
( on 23-04-2020 16:25:41 at 87069 mi )
• U0208-00 (2E) Lost communication with the seat control module A
• U0214-00 (2E) Lost communication with the remote function actuation
( on 23-04-2020 16:25:41 )
• U025D-00 (2E) Lost communication with front controls interface module B
( on 23-04-2020 16:25:41 )
• U3000-87 (2E) Control module - Bus signal/message failure - missing a message
TCM-Transmission 8spd
• U0424-08 (2E) Invalid data received from heating, ventilation and air conditioning control module - General failure information - bus signal/message failure
( on 23-04-2020 16:25:41 at 87069 mi )
15 June, typical of what I have been seeing
VIN: SALLAAAG5CA6*****
L319 - Discovery 4 2012
Vehicle scanned on 14-06-2020 14:25
Using IIDTool BT V4.0 B2691
AHCM-Auxilary Heater
• U0010-00 (2E) Medium speed CAN communication bus
( on 14-06-2020 13:10:26 at 87630 mi )
- Test Failed This Monitoring Cycle
- Confirmed
- Test Failed Since Last Clear
BCM-Body Control
• U0155-00 (2F) Lost communication with instrument cluster control module
( on 14-06-2020 13:03:56 )
- Test Failed
- Test Failed This Monitoring Cycle
- Confirmed
- Test Failed Since Last Clear
• U0164-00 (2F) Lost communication with heating ventilation and air conditioning control module
( on 14-06-2020 13:03:56 )
- Test Failed
- Test Failed This Monitoring Cycle
- Confirmed
- Test Failed Since Last Clear
• U0184-00 (2C) Lost communication with audio unit
( on 14-06-2020 13:16:25 at 87631 mi )
- Confirmed
- Test Failed Since Last Clear
• U0199-00 (2C) Lost communication with the door control module A
( on 14-06-2020 13:08:01 )
- Confirmed
- Test Failed Since Last Clear
• U0200-00 (2F) Lost communication with the door control module B
( on 14-06-2020 13:03:51 at 87626 mi )
- Test Failed
- Test Failed This Monitoring Cycle
- Confirmed
- Test Failed Since Last Clear
• U025D-00 (2C) Lost communication with front controls interface module B
( on 14-06-2020 13:16:25 at 87631 mi )
- Confirmed
- Test Failed Since Last Clear
HVAC-Ventilation
• U0140-87 (6C) Lost communication with body control module - Bus signal/message failure - missing a message
( on 14-06-2020 13:11:39 at 87630 mi )
- Confirmed
- Test Failed Since Last Clear
- Test Not Completed This Monitoring Cycle
• U0256-87 (6C) Lost communication with the front controls interface module - Bus signal/message failure - missing a message
( on 14-06-2020 13:11:39 at 87630 mi )
- Confirmed
- Test Failed Since Last Clear
- Test Not Completed This Monitoring Cycle
IPC-Instrument Pack
• U0010-88 (6C) Medium speed CAN communication bus - Bus signal/message failure - bus is off
( on 14-06-2020 13:04:01 at 87626 mi )
- Confirmed
- Test Failed Since Last Clear
- Test Not Completed This Monitoring Cycle
• U0140-00 (2F) Lost communication with body control module
( on 14-06-2020 13:03:55 at 87626 mi )
- Test Failed
- Test Failed This Monitoring Cycle
- Confirmed
- Test Failed Since Last Clear
• U0164-00 (2C) Lost communication with heating ventilation and air conditioning control module
( on 14-06-2020 13:04:00 at 87626 mi )
- Confirmed
- Test Failed Since Last Clear
• U0184-00 (2F) Lost communication with audio unit
( on 14-06-2020 13:04:01 at 87626 mi )
- Test Failed
- Test Failed This Monitoring Cycle
- Confirmed
- Test Failed Since Last Clear
• U0208-00 (2F) Lost communication with the seat control module A
- Test Failed
- Test Failed This Monitoring Cycle
- Confirmed
- Test Failed Since Last Clear
• U0214-00 (2F) Lost communication with the remote function actuation
- Test Failed
- Test Failed This Monitoring Cycle
- Confirmed
- Test Failed Since Last Clear
• U025D-00 (2F) Lost communication with front controls interface module B
( on 14-06-2020 13:04:01 at 87626 mi )
- Test Failed
- Test Failed This Monitoring Cycle
- Confirmed
- Test Failed Since Last Clear
• U3000-87 (2F) Control module - Bus signal/message failure - missing a message
- Test Failed
- Test Failed This Monitoring Cycle
- Confirmed
- Test Failed Since Last Clear
• U3002-81 (2F) Vehicle identification number - Bus signal/message failure - invalid serial data received
( on 14-06-2020 12:25:43 at 87625 mi )
- Test Failed
- Test Failed This Monitoring Cycle
- Confirmed
- Test Failed Since Last Clear
PDM-Passenger Door
• U0010-00 (28) Medium speed CAN communication bus
( on 14-06-2020 13:04:27 )
- Confirmed
- Test Failed Since Last Clear
• U0140-00 (2F) Lost communication with body control module
( on 14-06-2020 13:04:27 )
- Test Failed
- Test Failed This Monitoring Cycle
- Confirmed
- Test Failed Since Last Clear
• U0208-00 (2F) Lost communication with the seat control module A
( on 14-06-2020 13:19:13 )
- Test Failed
- Test Failed This Monitoring Cycle
- Confirmed
- Test Failed Since Last Clear
• U2101-00 (2F) Control module configuration incompatible
( on 14-06-2020 13:53:43 at 87654 mi )
- Test Failed
- Test Failed This Monitoring Cycle
- Confirmed
- Test Failed Since Last Clear
TCM-Transmission 8spd
• U0424-08 (2F) Invalid data received from heating, ventilation and air conditioning control module - General failure information - bus signal/message failure
( on 14-06-2020 13:03:56 at 87626 mi )
- Test Failed
- Test Failed This Monitoring Cycle
- Confirmed
- Test Failed Since Last Clear
15th Jun 2020 4:14 pm
Adeuk
Member Since: 31 Jan 2020
Location: Bucks
Posts: 15
Sorry to reply to my own post, but I took some screen shots of live values during a ten minute run yesterday:
After sitting for a few hours, immediately after start up at idle
Then under acceleration
Then cruising
Accelerating again:
Decelerating:
Then a few minutes after shutting down, but before car has completely switched off (quite a drop in SoC)
Thanks
16th Jun 2020 9:20 am
M3bobby
Member Since: 21 May 2018
Location: Sleaford, LINCS.
Posts: 857
I’ve not heard of a 2012 having a regenerative ability, is this definitely correct?
Battery I think for your car would have been a non AGM 019 but I think LR recommend a replacement with an AGM as that’s what was fitted from 2013?? I’ve got a 020 in my car which is bigger in capacity and size.
Have you checked you BCM for damp and or damage? If I remember correctly the CAN is like a tree and each branch has a start and finish with various devices in between. If device goes down, the start can’t talk to the end and everything on that branch loses communication. I’ll look at some diagrams but I would (if you haven’t already) drop the glove box and check all the connectors on the BCM for water ingress.012MY RRS 5.0 Supercharged Autobiography (Current)
Mods:
TPMS (Complete but got an issue)
Genuine LR DRLs (Complete)
Remote Boot close from key fob (Complete)
2016 Discovery 4 Mirrors AKA RRS2 (Complete)
2014 L405 Surround Camera retro fit (Now 2016 L319)
2013 RRS Dual View Screen fit (Complete)
2016 LR4 RSE (Complete)
2014 LR4 Homelink (Complete)
2016 FFRR Electrochromatic Wing Mirror Glass (Complete)
16th Jun 2020 10:49 am
M3bobby
Member Since: 21 May 2018
Location: Sleaford, LINCS.
Posts: 857
I think you need to do a bus integrity test which I think you can do on SDD. If that passes you need to start looking at open/short circuits in the MS can wiring.012MY RRS 5.0 Supercharged Autobiography (Current)
Mods:
TPMS (Complete but got an issue)
Genuine LR DRLs (Complete)
Remote Boot close from key fob (Complete)
2016 Discovery 4 Mirrors AKA RRS2 (Complete)
2014 L405 Surround Camera retro fit (Now 2016 L319)
2013 RRS Dual View Screen fit (Complete)
2016 LR4 RSE (Complete)
2014 LR4 Homelink (Complete)
2016 FFRR Electrochromatic Wing Mirror Glass (Complete)
16th Jun 2020 11:33 am
Adeuk
Member Since: 31 Jan 2020
Location: Bucks
Posts: 15
Thanks for the reply. The Specialists had already apparently checked the wiring, modules etc using SDD, which is how they resolved that it was an issue with current supply.
Cheers
16th Jun 2020 11:36 am
Nasher
Member Since: 07 Mar 2009
Location: Clanfield, North of Pompey - UK
Posts: 2815
Does the D4 have the same issue as the D3 with water ingress into the Body Control ECU(BCM) on the bulkhead behind the battery?
These symptoms look very similar to the issues I had years ago after some heavy rain showers.
On advice from Disco Mikey I whipped the battery out, then took the BCM out to find the connector block on top of it was full of water.
Nasher.Heaven doesn't want me, and hell is afraid I'll take over.
16th Jun 2020 12:10 pm
Adeuk
Member Since: 31 Jan 2020
Location: Bucks
Posts: 15
I'd said that this is intermittent. Last night showed a similar storey to my previous post. I didn't put it on charge overnight. This morning, on a short 10 min run, the battery/alternator/charging behaved exactly as I would expect it to have been designed; Trickle charging (maintaining a positive charge/current when cruising, idle or accelerating and then charging on deceleration. There were no reoccurrence of the faults or the symptoms. Screen shots below.
Out of interest, does this car have an overrun/clutch alternator pulley? Just wondering if it could be slipping when the engine is under load.....or does it not work this way? I can't hear any strange noises and is called "grasping at straws"
At idle:
Accelerating:
Decelerating:
17th Jun 2020 8:23 am
daimlermg
Member Since: 31 Jan 2010
Location: N Yorks
Posts: 140
020 battery fitting
M3bobby Did you have to modify the battery bay to get the 020 battery in ?
I am going to buy a new battery and it sounds like a better option than the standard battery
Also which one did you get?Faultmate MSV-2
500,000 plus miles in RR,s and trying for more without breakdowns this time
Gone Lexus RX400h SE
Past Audi A6 avant Qutro
Toyota Supra
Long line of RR's
Had for 40 years but now gone 1935 Daimler and 1937 MG
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
