Member Since: 07 Oct 2020
Location: Gloucestershire
Posts: 10
Inhibit Start When Cranking
Odd question, but is there a simple way to inhibit the engine from starting when cranking? I'm sure there must be but it's not striking me right now.
To explain the peculiar question, due to tired glow plugs, I know that my D3 will generate enough oil pressure at cranking speed to extinguish the oil pressure light if cranked for a few seconds, but it only doesn't start all but immediately when it's very cold and the glow plugs aren't playing ball. Given that it seems to make reasonable oil pressure at cranking speed, it occurs to me that after I've changed the oil pump and timing belt tomorrow, it would be quite nice to be able to crank the engine for a few seconds without it starting to fully fill the oil pump get the oil moving properly before the engine starts, runs at idle speed and the big end and main bearings see combustion loads. Especially so given the tales of woe of main bearing shells spinning>blanking oilways>bearings seizing>crankshafts snapping. If the presumably extended no/low oil pressure period that occurs after an oil pump change can be done at cranking speed and with minimal loadings for the sake of pulling a fuse or disconnecting a plug, why not? But which one?
Thanks in advance for any obvious suggestions that I can't seem to think of right now.
25th Feb 2022 10:26 pm
jenseneverest
Member Since: 12 Jun 2017
Location: somewhere
Posts: 769
remove the fuel pump relay, take the pressure out the fuel system with the bleed nipple, then crank over.
26th Feb 2022 12:22 am
PROFSR G
Member Since: 06 Mar 2017
Location: Lost
Posts: 5043
That won't do it, you need to kill the VCV and PCV at the very least to restrict it from starting! A D3 with a healthy HPFP will start and drive happily with absolutely no power to the LPFP!!!
As for priming the new oil pump this can be done via the oil filter housing check valve. To be honest though, and having fitted dozens of them it's just not necessary. Fit a genuine LR (FOMOCO) oil pump, crank seal, and crank bolt. If all that is done correctly it will be absolutely fine, and pressure to the bearings will be rapidly restored with the newer larger pump gears once you have started it.
However, if you still want to kill the PCV and VCV I think the fuse in the BJB is 13.yµ (idµ - eAµ) ψ=mψ
26th Feb 2022 3:29 am
SimonDJUK
Member Since: 07 Oct 2020
Location: Gloucestershire
Posts: 10
Thank you both for your replies.
I'll try pulling fuse 13 in the BJB and see if it doesn't start immediately. Nothing really lost if it does, but I'm a bit obsessive about the time taken for the oil pressure light to extinguish as it's currently a bit slow if the car hasn't been run for a few days, so will give it a go. Hopefully, the new oil pump will cure the slow rise of oil pressure in future.
PROFSR G, noting from other threads that you're very well clued up on the oil pump change, another question if I may. After a much shorter day than planned due to a morning spent at the vets with an injured cat, then a ring round the local (not that any of them are actually local) LR dealers to try and find a genuine crankshaft oil seal only to find that none had one in stock, then a bit of fight getting the starter motor out including remaking some corroded heatshields that I found during it's removal, then a few nerves that I was either twisting the head off the crankshaft pulley bolt or going to break the flywheel locking tool resulting in quite a long time spent hitting it alternately with the bar and rattle gun before it finally submitted (everything else felt well way too tight when removed, so maybe that was too), I've only got as far today as being about to fit a new oil seal into the newly fitted (genuine FOMOCO, as you noted previosuly) oil pump. As none of the local LR dealers can get a seal for a few days and I need to have it back together tomorrow, I'm left with two choices. I have a Victor Reinz seal (bought primarily for the plastic installation 'tool') and a "genuine OEM" seal from Island 4x4. The latter however is not a genuine (without the addition of "OEM") LR part (which they do also list but is out of stock), but on close inspection with a magnifying glass, has what appears to be a Ford logo mouled into it. Neither the VR or the Ford(?) seal appear to have any additional ribs/lips/mouldings as it's said that the genuine LR seals do. Slightly conceringly, the Ford seal also seems to have a very thin smear of clear, jelly like lubricant on the inner lip, when I understand that lubrication anywhere on the seal, oil pump, or crankshaft is an absolute no no. Do you know if the Ford seal is likely to be indentical to the current LR part, and which would you put in given the choice that I have?
Also, do you know if the washer behind the crankshaft pulley with the three tabs is incredibly thin? It's appears to have remained inside the pulley both visually and based on me being able to just detect the edges of it with a pick, but is so barely there that it could alomst be a witness mark rather than a physical thing - although I'd expect a witness mark to be recessed into rather than proud from the pulley, as I can feel with the pick that this is. I don't want to go trying to pick it out to check it's actually yhere, as it feels so thin that I can only imagine I'll destroy it if I do, but want to be sure that what I'm seeing and feeling is the washer itself and not a witness mark left by a washer that may have been lost at the previous belt change. Any thoughts on this appreciated.
For interest, the timing was bang on as was as all 3 locking tools went in before de-tensioning the old belt, the belt was good as new, the tensioner and one idler were perfectly smooth, the other idler was very vaguely gritty feeling. The pump was the unreinforced type, so presumbaly the original with 175K miles under its belt. The belt and the pump are a pleasure to do. The starter motor removal I'd happily not do too often. The tensioner however was showing an "A" in the window before I released it, rather then the casting line that I thought was supposed to be (somewhere round about, given a bit of belt stretch) there, so not sure what that indicates. As a result, I'm expecting to be slightly uncertain of whether I'm looking for a line or a letter in the window when I tension the new belt, and didn't think to look at what marks are present on the new tensioner before I called it a day.
Finally and most importantly having just noted your flag, PROFSR G. I hope things are as well with you as they can be given the situation. My thoughts are with you and your countryfolk. I would of course completety understand if you couldn't or didn't reply to this, but noting that you did so last night, will ask my questions anyway as perhaps something vaguely normal to think about and focus on might be welcome. Sanity, reason and democracy will prevail, I'm sure. The problem seems to me to be how the world can ensure that happens swiftly without it causing escalation on a scale that's unthinkable. We can only hope that a solution is being worked on. Take care and my thoughts and best wishes again.
26th Feb 2022 7:39 pm
PROFSR G
Member Since: 06 Mar 2017
Location: Lost
Posts: 5043
Hi SimonDJUK,
There is an exhaustive amount already written on the questions you have asked by very experienced members as well as myself. The search function really is your friend with these repetitive maintenance issues That said, I will however attempt to answer what you have asked.
The new FoMoCo oil pump will reduce the oil light extinguishing time down to about 2 seconds. The original oil pumps begin to loose their efficiency once the car reaches 100k miles, and obviously this deteriorates further as the miles continue to clock up.
The new pumps have larger gears and so are able to provide much better lubrication. You will realise this after you have fitted it as the timing chain rattle on start up will be diminished if not eliminated completely, depending of course on the stretch/wear of the chains and tensioners.
I use the original LR seals as there has been some issues in the past with the VR seals being spat out resulting in having to redo it with genuine LR. I have purchased my most recent batch from Island 4x4 last year. Sam told me at the time I purchased they were genuine LR and so far I have not had any issues. The LR seal must be dry fitted as this is critical during the first revolutions of the crank to friction seal against the crank shaft. I can't comment on the seal you purchased as I have no experience of them. Buying the VR seal was probably a good idea, and as you say it does come with the all important crank loading tool.
Leave the washer inside the pulley alone and make sure it hasn't fallen out before you refit. It is not available to buy separately but is important as an anti slip device for the pulley. If you are unsure it's actually present tap the pulley on a block of wood and it should fall out.
As for the belt tensioner the aligned setting will change as soon as the engine has been started because the belt begins to stretch. It's not difficult to set it up and there is tons already written with pics if you do a quick search.
Thank you for your comments re Ukraine but I am not Ukrainian. Like other members on here the flag now displayed in my profile I adopted as a statement of solidarity with the Ukranian people. And, with those on this forum who also wish express their profound opposition to the appalling abuses now being perpetrated against that country and it's people by Russia.yµ (idµ - eAµ) ψ=mψ
26th Feb 2022 9:46 pm
SimonDJUK
Member Since: 07 Oct 2020
Location: Gloucestershire
Posts: 10
Hi PROFSR G, and sorry about the delayed reply.
Thanks very much for the comprehensive reply, but apologies again, as I think I may have caused you to do a bit of unecssary typing by me appearing to be asking more in my previous post than I actually was. It was really just the friction washer thickness and oil seal choice questions that I was looking for thoughts on, as I'd already read just about every other thread on timing belts and oil pumps but didn't find answers to the washer thickness question or preference between the two oil seal choices I had within them. Your thought and input is very much appreciated nonetheless of course!
I concluded that the friction washer was inside the pulley, but perhaps rather thninner and more compressesd than it should be, as I'm quite convinved the crankshaft pulley bolt had been over-torqued. I reckon I must have been putting something in the region of 400 to 500Nm, possibly more on the 'bounces', on it before it cracked. I fully expected to break either the bolt, the 3/4" breaker bar, the socket, the crank locking tool, or the cranskshaft itself before it pinged, and was mightily relieved to see that the pulley wasn't turning when it started to give with a horrible yeilding feeling, and futher relieved when the bolt head brought its thread with it and that the yeilding feeling wasn't the head twisting off.
Out of interest when fitting the new bolt, after the inital 100Nm, I set the torque wrench to its max of 340Nm to see if it clicked before I got the 90 degrees. It didn't click, although may not have been far from it. In comparison to undoing the old bolt, it felt so much like I'd barely nipped up the new one that it caused me to stop and think about it.
I also went with the Ford seal in the end. Given reports of the VR seals popping out, the Ford seal having been sold as 'genuine OEM' (even if not as purely 'genuine') so possibly identical to the LR part aside from the packaging, and the vague logic that putting a Ford seal into a FoMoCo pump must make some sort of sense, it seemed like the better of the two less than ideal choices I had. No sign of it leaking so far, but not many miles done yet either.
And finally, the pain in the backside that the starter motor is proved to be a blessing in the end, as I completely forgot about the 4 hour wait between fitting the seal and starting the engine. If it hadn't been for an hour long fight to figure out how to either get the nut onto the battery cable stud with the stater in place or get the starter in place with the battery cable attached, plus another half hour or so to fettle the heatshields I remade after findng the orignals were corroded when I completely pointlessly removed them to try and improve access to get the stater out, I'd have started it a lot sooner before the 4 hours was up than I did. I know how to do it next time now though, which may be optimistic given that the vehicle will need to be 21 years old or have covered around 280,000 miles before the timing belt's due again, but may be necessary if I've made the worng oil seal choice or started the engine too soon after fitting it. I might order a genuine LR seal on the basis that if I've got it, I probably won't need it!
As regards your flag, I did wonder if that might be the case, but thought I'd seen it on your posts before the current situation in the Ukraine arose. I'm obviously thinking of having seen it being used by a different poster in the past though. Anyway, what a terrible and sadly still worsening situation it is.
Thanks again for all the advice, it's very much appreciated.
1st Mar 2022 1:51 pm
PROFSR G
Member Since: 06 Mar 2017
Location: Lost
Posts: 5043
Interesting observations regarding your old crank bolt which sounds like it was overtightened by some margin. The later 16mm (last of the D3's and later 3.0lt D4) bolt has a specified torque of 300Nm in two stages of 150Nm and then another 90°
So it may be the latter D4 values were previously used by mistake, I'm surprised the bolt didn't give way if it was! In any case, you're all done now. yµ (idµ - eAµ) ψ=mψ
1st Mar 2022 2:26 pm
frankv
Member Since: 07 May 2015
Location: Amsterdam area
Posts: 15
PROFSR G wrote:
However, if you still want to kill the PCV and VCV I think the fuse in the BJB is 13.
Hi, my 4.4 V8 petrol Discovery 3 has been in my driveway for about 6 months. I have kept the battery on a trickle charge, so all should be well when starting. But I would like to turn over the engine unloaded on the starter motor for say 10 secs to bring some oil to the bearings before doing the proper startup.
As I see it, with my petrol V8 I will have to pull the same fuse no 13 in my fuse box in the engine bay to prevent the engine from actually starting when cranking it?
Online I find fuse 13 for the petrol versions is for: "Petrol - petrol EMS (ECU, VVTs and fuel pump relay control)"
Whereas for diesel it says: "Diesel EMS (PCV, VCV)"
8th May 2024 3:55 pm
PROFSR G
Member Since: 06 Mar 2017
Location: Lost
Posts: 5043
Make sure the battery is fully charged and the oil level is correct and just start it. The oil pump will fill the bearings and other cavities far quicker than spinning the engine on the starter ever will.
Pulling fuse No'6 will kill the coils if you want to spin the engine without starting.yµ (idµ - eAµ) ψ=mψ
8th May 2024 4:02 pm
frankv
Member Since: 07 May 2015
Location: Amsterdam area
Posts: 15
Ok thanks for the response, I'll see what I will do. Just start it as you say, or remove fuse 6 and crank it first.
8th May 2024 7:08 pm
HairyFool
Member Since: 04 Jan 2023
Location: North Essex
Posts: 676
My now 85 year old somewhat refined aunt would religiously turn over her Austin A30 twice on the starter handle every morning (warm or cold) before getting in to start it normally.
No idea if it did any good but she was happy.A visitor from the dark side, my other vehicle is an is still an EV. Strictly speaking its SWMBO.
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