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chm
Member Since: 30 May 2010
Location: Rivonia
Posts: 26
  
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| Dual Battery and "Intelligent Alternator" |
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Hi all
I recently transplanted by National Luna 92 liter into my D4 (had to remove the back seats to accomodate the height). To power it, I opted for the National Luna battery in a box solution.
I had some interesting experiences with this configuration whilst driving around in the Kruger Park.
The NL batterty system, like most batterty systems I assume?, utilises the voltage on the main batterty to determine wheather the alternator is doing its thing. After a specified amount of time, it will then actuate the soloniod, so doing connecting the second battery to the alternator and charging starts...
The new D4 (and apparently the new series 200 Cruisers) utilise what is called an "Intelligent Alternator".
Problem with this is that the alternator is contuniously changing the output voltage which tricks up the electronics of the dual battery controller.
LR reportedly has not been forthcoming with any information to assist NL. When I queried them they were, to be kind, rude!
Since I live in Johannesburg, I went down to the guys at NL, where they measured up the vehicle voltages and promptly re-programmed my unit with lower kick-in voltages after only 60 seconds. All this in an attempt to get the second battery in parallel and tricking the computer into keeping the alternator into thinking the main battery is in need of charge. This is not perfect as the D4 does not only make its decisions on voltage, but apparently now have current sensors all over the place.
My unit is now peforming OK, but I am still testing and will provide more info as and when I get it.
Some points of discussion I would like to raise:
1) Should LR not be providing more information to ensure that those of us who want to take our D4's into the bush, can do so?
2) Has anyone got more information or know of any battery systems which overcome this problem?
My thanks to the guys at NL who has been great in getting my unit to work.
Hope this post will add some context when deciding on a dual battery system for the D4...
regards, regards, Carl-Hein
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 30th May 2010 9:57 am |
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GraemeS
Member Since: 17 Mar 2008
Location: NSW
Posts: 706
 
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My simple VSR has a cut-in voltage of 12.5V and seems to work well. I have a dual LED battery voltage monitor that indicates the 2nd battery connects quite soon after startup and doesn't appear to have any problems.
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| 30th May 2010 9:28 pm |
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Salty Spuds
Member Since: 05 Dec 2009
Location: The Peoples Republic of South Yorkshire
Posts: 86
 
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If you have the towing electrics fitted using the 12n & 12s sockets, the 12s socket has a battery charging output for the caravan / trailer. I assume that this gets around the problem. The loom for the sockets is in the lefthand rear inner wing, I assume (again!) that there is a battery charging supply in there, though it might need activating. Getting the dealer to fit & activate the towing elects. might be an easy workaround.
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| 30th May 2010 10:00 pm |
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Bushwanderer
Member Since: 27 Nov 2007
Location: Northern Rivers, NSW, Australia
Posts: 2050
 
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From what I've read, a lot of people have troube with the NL system.
LR are NOT responsible for solving aftermarket accessories problems! 
The only unit that I know that is designed for the D3 (& D4) is the Traxide system. Contact Drivesafe on this site.
Best Wishes,
Peter The Bearded Dragon
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| 31st May 2010 4:58 am |
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Trackman
Member Since: 16 Apr 2010
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 430
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The battery charge feed that goes to the 12S socket is fed via a relay from the battery. This relay is activated when the ignition is on (position 2)
This is on a D3 but assume its the same on the D4 
Ian.
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| 13th Jun 2010 7:44 pm |
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Russell
Member Since: 23 Aug 2007
Location: Kent
Posts: 10564
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Ian there is no position on D4 as it is keyless, well at least on my model that is the case. MY17 D5 1st Edition Namib Orange
MY15 D4 HSE Kaikoura Stone
MY12 D4 HSE Nara Bronze Sold and gone
MY11 D4 HSE Stornaway Grey Sold and gone
D3 S spec Silver Sold and gone
Tow bar, full length roof bars, side steps, tow bar storage unit, surround camers.
D4 camera club
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| 13th Jun 2010 7:56 pm |
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Trackman
Member Since: 16 Apr 2010
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 430
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opps 
Forgot about that but assume its the same when ignition is on and engine running i.e Alternator running.
The Relay that does the switch is in the left hand cubby hole ( on the D3! )
Ian.
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| 13th Jun 2010 9:14 pm |
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drivesafe
Member Since: 23 Feb 2006
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Posts: 867
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With a D3, the battery feed can be live with the ignition switch in the ON position but the motor does not have to be running, so you can still flatten the cranking battery.
On a D4, the motor must be running or the battery feed is not powered, and this means you can’t flatten the cranking battery. 2008 TDV8 RR Lux + 2009 D4 2.7
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| 14th Jun 2010 1:39 pm |
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dick dastardly
Member Since: 29 May 2007
Location: wiggleigh bottom
Posts: 1112
 
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no relay on 12s socket pin 9(+) and 13(ground). I can use current or charge battery directly with the car locked and the ignition off. There's one wheel on my wagon, but i'm still rollin' along, it's the cherokee, they're after me, but I'm singing a happy song
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| 15th Jun 2010 2:07 pm |
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chm
Member Since: 30 May 2010
Location: Rivonia
Posts: 26
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Thanks for all inputs.
I have just returned from a 2 week budu bashing in Botswana and would like to share my experience.
I monitored the alternator output voltage which was almost never constant. At one point for about two days the alternator seems to stop working rendering the battery voltage in the region of 12.3 --> 12.6 V.
Having your charging system kick in early, will not hep the problem of the alternator does not actually start alternating. Lead acid batteries only charge when voltages approach 13.5 V. Under these conditions a DC/DC charger will have to be inserted no matter what product you use.
I will ask about the dedicated charging loom and will report back.
regards,
CHM regards, Carl-Hein
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| 26th Sep 2010 1:12 pm |
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drivesafe
Member Since: 23 Feb 2006
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Posts: 867
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Hi chm, most DC-DC converters and dual battery isolators cut out at 12.7 or higher, so they too will not work.
Thanks Bushwanderer and yes the SC80-LR of mine is not effected by the low operating voltages of the D4 and continues to charge auxiliary/house batteries while the voltage is anything above the SoC of these batteries.
Another point chm, if a battery has an SoC of just 12.0v and you apply a voltage of 12.1v you will start charging the battery.
As long as the applied voltage is higher than the battery’s SoC it will charge the battery. The high the applied voltage to the SoC of the battery the quicker is will charge. 2008 TDV8 RR Lux + 2009 D4 2.7
Last edited by drivesafe on 26th Sep 2010 9:06 pm. Edited 1 time in total
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| 26th Sep 2010 1:47 pm |
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PSC
Member Since: 01 May 2006
Location: Johannesburg
Posts: 255
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chm wrote:I monitored the alternator output voltage which was almost never constant. At one point for about two days the alternator seems to stop working rendering the battery voltage in the region of 12.3 --> 12.6 V.
Was it hot during this period ?
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| 26th Sep 2010 2:33 pm |
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furrydog
Member Since: 14 Jun 2010
Location: australia
Posts: 4
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drivesafe,
I was reading in one of your past replies that a Disco 3 alternator can charge up to 2 batteries, would there be any problems if I wanted to charge a remote 3rd battery say in a camper trailer? Also recently I discharged my main battery and had problems starting the vehicle, in your system would I be able to use the second battery as a jump start battery?
thanks
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| 2nd Oct 2010 11:26 am |
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drivesafe
Member Since: 23 Feb 2006
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Posts: 867
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Hi furrydog, there is actually no limit to the number of batteries you can connect to the charging system of any vehicle.
The limiting factor is the size of the alternator, which is not a problem in either the D3 or D4, and the size and length of cable joining the auxiliary/house batteries to the cranking battery.
In most set ups, no matter where the auxiliary/house batteries are located, the optimum size cable is 6B&S ( 13.5mm2 ) or 16mm2 cable for connecting all the batteries together and always run both positive and negative cables.
You can install thicker but there is little to no advantage gained for the additional work and cost.
Over here, KK camper trailers have up to 10 x 36 Ah AGM house batteries installed and work fine with any vehicle.
As far as Jump Starting goes, if you have the auxiliary battery installed under the bonnet, all you need to jump start is a single jumper lead, connected between the positive terminals of both batteries. 2008 TDV8 RR Lux + 2009 D4 2.7
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| 2nd Oct 2010 9:27 pm |
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drivesafe
Member Since: 23 Feb 2006
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Posts: 867
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PSC wrote:chm wrote:I monitored the alternator output voltage which was almost never constant. At one point for about two days the alternator seems to stop working rendering the battery voltage in the region of 12.3 --> 12.6 V.
Was it hot during this period ?
Hi PSC, temperature only plays a small part in the D4’s voltage level selection.
I’ve been doing some testing and getting feed back from a number of D4 owners and the operation of the D4’s voltage level control is nothing short of amazing and is going to cause heaps of problems for most ( if not all other ) isolators.
I can see many problems for people trying to charge their auxiliary/house batteries when these vehicles operate with voltages as low as 12.2v.
Even when the initial cold starting voltage can be 14.5+v, which is above all isolator cut-in settings, but the first time the D4 coasts, the voltage will drop below the isolator’s cut-out and the isolator will continue to cut in and out until the initial 14.5+v start-up voltage cycle finishes, only up to 30 minutes after starting and then the maximum operating voltage can be as low as 12.7-12.8v which means no more charging.
Plus you can have a situation whether the vehicle is driven for a short time and then stopped, to say refuel or for a meal break. If the stop time is less than 2 hours, that’s not a typo, the voltage, once the motor is started again, will sit at 12.2v for anything up to 5 minutes and then rise to no more than 12.7-12.8v. This means other isolators never turns back on.
So far, the SC80 is proving to be the ONLY isolator to work properly with the D4. 2008 TDV8 RR Lux + 2009 D4 2.7
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| 2nd Oct 2010 9:56 pm |
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