Engine is out and partially stripped. It ran fine, but I have chosen to check the con rod and main bearings as I might as well. They are 'ok-ish' but I would like to change them.
Interested in experiences with the two obvious suppliers - FAI and KING. I have heard that FAI are preferred from one source.
Looking for feedback:
What have you fitted, what was the outcome?
Are there other suppliers that I have not found yet?
Can you get tabbed main bearings (can't find them online) like were fitted to later engines?
Defector fitted these tabbed main bearings to his earlier engine as covered in this post:
But Defector found some genuine bearings on Ebay - This appears to be a one off as the OEM bearing manufacturer (Federal Mogul) don't appear to sell to anyone but Ford (engine builder).
AdrianSeries one 1949 - in bits, chassis is strapped to the ceiling in my garage (beside the canoe)
LR 90 - In bits
Disco 3 - currently in bits
7th Mar 2021 11:11 pm
PROFSR G
Member Since: 06 Mar 2017
Location: Lost
Posts: 4626
Member Since: 18 Oct 2019
Location: Sleen
Posts: 1815
I also use King.... island4x4 have them in a package mains&big-ends
Tabbed shells, I couldn’t find them either, but also if you find them, you need to machine the conrods etc... and everting incl heads must come off... al lot more work involved...Best regards
Harold
Always looking for Pre '55's & Pre war British Motorcycles! knowing or having one for sale? PM please. I visit the UK 6 times a year
Ps. I edit my texts quite often, english is not my native language, so I will edit My “typo’s” etc.
8th Mar 2021 1:57 am
PROFSR G
Member Since: 06 Mar 2017
Location: Lost
Posts: 4626
There might be something worth chasing in this thread regarding tabbed bearings. Even though the old eBay link is no longer active, I think the OP is.
Member Since: 14 Apr 2019
Location: Westbury
Posts: 2459
Motolab wrote:
I also use King.... island4x4 have them in a package mains&big-ends
Tabbed shells, I couldn’t find them either, but also if you find them, you need to machine the conrods etc... and everting incl headhs must come off... al lot more work involved...
You only need to machine a grove for the main bearing fitted to the main caps, its only that bearing that is tabbed.
This stops the main bearing spinning and cutting off the oil supply to the big ends.
The Gen 2 engine has them fitted as standard and i made a template when i was last rebuilding one but couldnt get the tabbed bearings.Andrew
D3 2.7tdv6 2005
D4 3.0 SDV6 Commercial died and gone to LR heaven
D5 3.0 SDV6 HSE
Happy to be corrected but wasn't there a debate on here that concluded the tabbing simply ensured correct assembly and that the tabbed bearing could still spin?
Someone said only way to prevent spin was screws as used in racing engines... which I'd never previously heard of..
Dean
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8th Mar 2021 8:36 am
garrycol
Member Since: 06 Dec 2010
Location: Canberra
Posts: 1115
aja4x4 wrote:
This stops the main bearing spinning and cutting off the oil supply to the big ends.
That is not correct - the bearings can still spin as evidenced by increased failures in later 3.0 engines.
8th Mar 2021 8:47 am
jenseneverest
Member Since: 12 Jun 2017
Location: somewhere
Posts: 760
Bearings only spin when they run out of oil, get hot and deform.
Granted once they spin it destroys the engine.
When reusing old cranks and conrods they need to be properly checked for size
Taper - ovality - size of all crank journals and again size - ovality on correctly torqued conrods.
I have previously used brass pins as "tabs" on bearings. A small hole drilled right through the bearing into the housing and a interference fit brass peg to secure, but that was on an old generator not a disco lol.
Member Since: 28 Dec 2018
Location: Cradley Heath
Posts: 382
Hardware wrote:
Happy to be corrected but wasn't there a debate on here that concluded the tabbing simply ensured correct assembly and that the tabbed bearing could still spin?
Someone said only way to prevent spin was screws as used in racing engines... which I'd never previously heard of.
That would be me Joe
8th Mar 2021 3:19 pm
Breg90
Member Since: 04 Feb 2017
Location: Falkirk
Posts: 347
OK, got a supplier that purports to be able to source genuine bearings. I'll not name them at this point until I find out more to save 100's of enquiries that might not go anywhere. But to order them you need to know what shells you need for each bearing based on the journal and bore tolerance. To do that you either very very accurately measure bores and journal diameters, or use the codes teeped/stamped in the block/crank. Either way you then need the size table to identify the appropriate bearing shells to give the ideal bearing clearance. The vendor requires me to do this too progress the enquiry.
So I went to the documents I have found on this forum that have such info. The best seems to be this:
It's for a 3.0 litre. However the bearing clearance table does not match either big end of main bearing basic diameters???!!! Its not an official LR / Ford / PSA document either. However it does state the bearings are colour coded on the side of the shell - An inspection of my bearings reveled no paint marks...
There is another doc on the D3 forum that also eludes to the process, can't find it again, but looks to be for a different engine when you get to the bearing size table.
I then went to look at the codes that are supposedly on the crank and engine to allow me to determine what bearings I need using the colour code chart (which I don't yet have!).
Crank - Flywheel end:
I 'think' the relevant code is: MLII JKHLGF ??
The 1st 4 letters being the main bearing size code, the last 6 being the big end journal size code as far as I can tell.
There is also a code on the counterbalance web at the front of the crank. Not sure what this means yet:
I then went to look for the codes on the engine block. Can't find them anywhere.... arrghh!!!
After a glass of wine & a sleep on it I decided to check the back of each bearing shell for part no/codes on the logic that paint on the side of a shell is not robust enough to be the only means of identifying size. Each shell is stamped like so:
I had read that the bearings are made by 'Federal Mogul'. I think the little circular logo int he above pictures confirms this when compared against the company logo:
This gives me a shell stamping list by location:
I will be sending this to the supplier too see if this suffices.
However - Questions for those more knowledgeable &/or have tried this before!
1/. Do you have any (or know of any) good documentation on this that you could share? - in particular the size/colour code chart.
2/. Where the hell is the code/stamping on the block!
3/. Have you managed to buy (or tried and failed) to buy the bearings sized matched before? What did you learn?
Thanks in advance,
AdrianSeries one 1949 - in bits, chassis is strapped to the ceiling in my garage (beside the canoe)
LR 90 - In bits
Disco 3 - currently in bits
14th Mar 2021 2:39 pm
Motolab
Member Since: 18 Oct 2019
Location: Sleen
Posts: 1815
jenseneverest wrote:
Bearings only spin when they run out of oil, get hot and deform.
So you say, that all the spun bearings in TDV6 engines, failed because they dit get no oil....
Sorry to say but your statement is not completely true for the TDV6...
It is not because they do run out of oil....
I had 3 TDV6 engines apart, to rebuild for various reasons... only one had a spun bearing...
The design in this particular engine is such that the bearing fitment relies on tension... when the tension goes away, they spin
What is did see on the two running ones, is that the bearings wear rather quick on these engines...
Significant at 60K mls, double the wear amount at 120K mls... in such extent that it is easy to loose the needed tension for proper fitment...
Why they wear so quick, can be low oil presure, i agree.. though i am not sure if that can be a final conclusion, without proper and extensive investigation....Best regards
Harold
Always looking for Pre '55's & Pre war British Motorcycles! knowing or having one for sale? PM please. I visit the UK 6 times a year
Ps. I edit my texts quite often, english is not my native language, so I will edit My “typo’s” etc.
14th Mar 2021 10:02 pm
FidoNick
Member Since: 18 Jan 2021
Location: Purton, Wiltshire
Posts: 120
Sorry to be a bit 'thick', but what is meant by a 'spun bearing'? I thought all bearings are supposed to spin?
I've only been on this forum for a short time and I've gotta say, the level of knowledge here is immense and the willingness to share even biggerer! I'm learning loads of stuff I don't need to know .
14th Mar 2021 11:04 pm
aja4x4
Member Since: 14 Apr 2019
Location: Westbury
Posts: 2459
The main crank shaft bearings stay still in the block and the crank rotates inside them.
The bearings have an oilway in them that feeds oil through holes in the crank to the big ends, if a bearing spins round by only a small amount it cuts off the oil supply to the big ends and results in major engihe damage.Andrew
D3 2.7tdv6 2005
D4 3.0 SDV6 Commercial died and gone to LR heaven
D5 3.0 SDV6 HSE
14th Mar 2021 11:11 pm
FidoNick
Member Since: 18 Jan 2021
Location: Purton, Wiltshire
Posts: 120
Oooh! Now I see why that's not a good thing!
15th Mar 2021 12:06 am
garrycol
Member Since: 06 Dec 2010
Location: Canberra
Posts: 1115
Motolab wrote:
The design in this particular engine is such that the bearing fitment relies on tension... when the tension goes away, they spin
What is did see on the two running ones, is that the bearings wear rather quick on these engines...
Significant at 60K mls, double the wear amount at 120K mls... in such extent that it is easy to loose the needed tension for proper fitment...
Why they wear so quick, can be low oil presure, i agree.. though i am not sure if that can be a final conclusion, without proper and extensive investigation....
One other possible cause in some cases - at least with the 2.7 is that the bearing caps are loose and allow the bearings to spin and block oil ways and then seize.
An acquaintance with a D3 was getting some head work done at about the time the bearing issue was coming to light. As a precaution he had the mechanic drop the sump to look at the crankshaft etc. He found that a number of the bearing caps were loose or the bolts below torque specs - had not been touched since the engine had been built. No bearings had spun but if the loose cap bolts had not been picked up would have almost been a certainty. There was no bottom end noise.
Caps/bolts were replaced/retorqued and all has been good since.
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