DISCO4.COM - View topic - Gasoline model - Need help on "Updated Fuel Tank"

Gram-br

Member Since: 23 Apr 2021
Location: SAO PAULO
Posts: 15

2008 Discovery 3 4.0 V6 Petrol S Auto Java Black

Gasoline model - Need help on "Updated Fuel Tank"

I am about to purchase a new fuel pump for my '08 V6 Cologne, but I am seeing two different part numbers for the pump/sender unit - one for "Updated Fuel Tank" (LR016845) and one without reference to any update (WGS500051).

Can't find any information on the internet on what the 'update' was, or more particularly how I would identify if my fuel tank is the updated/not update version.

I am not really in a position to remove the tank to look at the existing part, then wait for delivery of parts out here to Brazil, so I need to try to confirm which part I need in advance.

Can anyone guide me on how I might identify an 'updated' fuel tank?

[EDIT] Answering my own query .... a bit more internet searching provided the information I need (local JLR dealer totally disinterested and 'not able to assist'.

If anybody else has the same problem this very useful post provides great information:

https://landroverforums.com/forum/lr3-28/f...ocy-94084/

Briefly, no way of knowing from the outside, and not even JLR can tell you with certainty which pump you need. Afff. MY05 Disco 3 4.4 V8 HSE .... insurance write-off
Replaced with MY08 Disco 3 4.0 V6 base model
'98 Toyota Hilux SW4 V6 for playing in the mud
'03 Brazilian Nissan XTerra Diesel ... my overland car, sold
+ countless others

30th Sep 2022 5:14 pm

Naki Blake

Member Since: 31 Dec 2021
Location: Taranaki
Posts: 237

2006 Discovery 3 4.0 V6 Petrol SE Auto Bonatti Grey

Hello (from New Zealand)

I am interested in your thread. I too have the 4.0L Gasoline (we call it Petrol here) Cologne engine on my D3.

Very interesting your link re the fuel tank recall.

What leads you to believe that the fuel pump needed replacing?

I occasionally have a non starting issue. It happens about every month or so. It will crank, fire, but die immediately. Sometimes it keeps cranking even if I let go of the key. Can be when the engine is cold or warm. Very random, but annoying when it happens. 90% of the time the car starts first crank, no problem.

Last couple of road trips (long distance driving) I've had the fuel consumption display go blank. It then resumes 5 or so minutes later. I believe that on the fuel tank there is a front fuel level sensor, and a rear fuel level sensor which is part of the fuel pump. Can anyone tell me if the fuel consumption is calculated using either of these sensors?

I don't know if my fuel tank has been replaced as part of the recall. My vehicle (2006) was first registered in Japan and brought over to NZ in 2016, so I don't know its history prior to being imported to NZ.

I am wondering if my random non start issue is due to the fuel pump. I've not got a pressure gauge to test the pressure at the fuel rail via the Schrader valve.

My vehicle has done approx 159,000 km / 100,000 miles.

If it is the fuel pump does it throw a fault code (I've got a GAPIID BT). Recently I had a P0406-00 (E8) Exhaust gas recirculation sensor A circuit high code and a P0108-00 (E8) Manifold absolute pressure/barometric sensor high input code. So maybe I'm in for a EGR/MAF sensor replacement?

Anyway Gram-br keep us posted. I keen to hear how easy it is to remove the fuel tank and replace the fuel pump.

Hopefully one of the Oz guys chips in as the V6 4.0 L cologne engine was an option in Australia as well.

Cheers
Blake (from the Naki)

1st Oct 2022 12:16 am

Gram-br

Member Since: 23 Apr 2021
Location: SAO PAULO
Posts: 15

Hi Naki Blake,

Ref. the fuel pump, and cutting a long story short, I was having hot starting issues - EGR and sensor were changed by a local indie, who has seen this problem a few times with V6's, but that did not help (however from your comments this could well be your problem).

Refusal to start when hot was finally traced to the fuel pump not running when the car was hot --- this was after a lot of head scratching and diagnostic work with a laptop. These Cologne motors do not supply the same amount of information to the ECU / GAP Tool as the diesels or V8's, so it took some detective work to trace the fault.

Don't ask me why that was happening, there is no logic whatsoever to a FP not running when the car is hot, however I have seen similar problems with the Cologne motor quoted on Ranger / Explorer forums in the USA.

Anyway, fuel pump was reconditioned locally and now works fine hot or cold, however I want to replace it with a new unit to maintain reliability. Import taxes here in Brazil add 100% to the cost, so I need to be sure I am ordering the right part to avoid wasting time and $$$.

From what I have read cars affected by the update/recall were the earlier 2005/6 models, which were recalled in 2006 and again in 2010, so yours may or may not be "updated". Mine is '08, so I am guessing I should order the non-updated part.

Regarding the fuel consumption display, my base model does not have one, so I'm afraid I cant help you there. MY05 Disco 3 4.4 V8 HSE .... insurance write-off
Replaced with MY08 Disco 3 4.0 V6 base model
'98 Toyota Hilux SW4 V6 for playing in the mud
'03 Brazilian Nissan XTerra Diesel ... my overland car, sold
+ countless others

1st Oct 2022 1:12 am

Naki Blake

Member Since: 31 Dec 2021
Location: Taranaki
Posts: 237

Is your fuel pump very loud? When I first turn the key on there is a noticible buzz from behind which I'm assuming us the fuel pump. It's always done this. Obviously I can't here it once the engine is running. I've done approx 50,000 km (30,000 miles since buying it 4 years ago).

In terms of parts, New Zealand prices for LR parts is very expensive too. I've brought a few things on-line from UK Websites (e.g. air suspension compressor) which even with postage works out approx half the price if I buy in NZ.

Thanks Blake

1st Oct 2022 2:28 am

Gram-br

Member Since: 23 Apr 2021
Location: SAO PAULO
Posts: 15

Yes, my fuel pump used to make a noise with the ignition on (kind of an electrical buzzing noise), but that stopped once it had been reconditioned. Don't hear any noise now.

The car had approx 110,000 km when the starting problem started, but the indie who diagnosed the pump problem reported that it was not the original pump. I don't have the service history on the car, so I don't know when or why the original pump was changed.

There are plenty of cheap chinese copy pumps available locally, so I guess it must be a fairly common problem on gasoline cars. I will be installing either a LR original or a VDO/Continental, if I can source one. Difficult to know the manufacturer of the many "OEM" pumps that are for sale. MY05 Disco 3 4.4 V8 HSE .... insurance write-off
Replaced with MY08 Disco 3 4.0 V6 base model
'98 Toyota Hilux SW4 V6 for playing in the mud
'03 Brazilian Nissan XTerra Diesel ... my overland car, sold
+ countless others

1st Oct 2022 4:09 pm

ostland

Member Since: 16 Jan 2009
Location: Capital!
Posts: 89

2006 Discovery 3 4.0 V6 Petrol SE Auto Java Black

I don’t know whether your car has a new fuel tank or not, but for cars sold in Japan there is a way to check whether the car had been recalled by the local transport agency for a replacement.

This database lists all the recalls for Petrol V6 in the past: https://carinf.mlit.go.jp/jidosha/carinf/r...;txtToDat=

Ignore the middle one, but the other two are both about fuel tanks. The description states (per Google) “Due to improper molding of the breather pipe inside the fuel tank (which is used to discharge the air in the fuel tank to the outside when refueling), the connection may come off and the fuel may be refueled in excess of the specified amount. be. Therefore, from this point, fuel flows into the canister and the engine is supplied with rich fuel, causing the engine to stop. may leak”

The relevant VINs for the recall are listed, but it also instructs the repairer to put a yellow paint (presumably a dot) on the inner surface of the fuel flap, so look out for this to know if the repair was carried out.

It looks as if though only some MY05 and MY07 were subject to this recall in Japan, so it’s probably a faulty batch issue. I don’t know how Brazil deals with the manufacturer’s vehicle recalls, but if there is an official database then that should give you a clue.

1st Oct 2022 10:12 pm

Gram-br

Member Since: 23 Apr 2021
Location: SAO PAULO
Posts: 15

Thanks for the suggestion, ostland. The local (Brazil) recall database is not fully complete, it only shows the recalls that the manufacturers choose to inform - in this case the 2005 and 2007 recalls on some Discovery 3, not the 2010 recall. I am going to guess that my '08 either was not affected or has not been recalled, so I need the earlier fuel pump with a WGS500051 part number. MY05 Disco 3 4.4 V8 HSE .... insurance write-off
Replaced with MY08 Disco 3 4.0 V6 base model
'98 Toyota Hilux SW4 V6 for playing in the mud
'03 Brazilian Nissan XTerra Diesel ... my overland car, sold
+ countless others

1st Oct 2022 10:32 pm

Naki Blake

Member Since: 31 Dec 2021
Location: Taranaki
Posts: 237

Thanks Ostland

My VIN falls outside of the recall (my VIN last 6 digits are 377596) so I can assume mine is the older style fuel tank. Also no dab of yellow paint inside the fuel flap.

Gram-br - let us know how you get on removing the fuel tank. I am considering doing it myself.

cheers
Blake

2nd Oct 2022 3:14 am

Globetrotter448

Member Since: 21 Mar 2017
Location: Londonderry NSW
Posts: 1782

2007 Discovery 3 4.0 V6 Petrol SE Auto Java Black

when removing tank, make sure you only have minimal fuel in it as it can be very heavy.

2nd Oct 2022 9:14 am

epninety

Member Since: 12 Oct 2012
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 327

2005 Discovery 3 TDV6 HSE Auto Java Black

Naki Blake wrote:
Hello (from New Zealand)
I believe that on the fuel tank there is a front fuel level sensor, and a rear fuel level sensor which is part of the fuel pump. Can anyone tell me if the fuel consumption is calculated using either of these sensors?

I don't think you could calculate consumption from the level sensors, even using fuel as quickly as a D3

In any case, the engine management already knows very accurately how much fuel is injected on each cylinder on each stroke of the engine, so I don't think there's any reason for it to try.

2nd Oct 2022 9:34 am

Naki Blake

Member Since: 31 Dec 2021
Location: Taranaki
Posts: 237

Thanks epninety

What I'm trying to work out is why the MPG figure on the dash sometimes stops working - just blanks out, then resumes 5 or 10 minutes later.

Correct me if I'm wrong but are you saying the mpg reading on the dash is calculated by the ECM monitoring the injectors?

Is the sensors in the fuel tank therefore just for the fuel gauge?

Cheers

2nd Oct 2022 9:44 am

Globetrotter448

Member Since: 21 Mar 2017
Location: Londonderry NSW
Posts: 1782

There are sensors in the tank for the fuel gauge but also there are sensors in there for if the vehicle rolls over to shut the fuel off.

2nd Oct 2022 10:34 am

epninety

Member Since: 12 Oct 2012
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 327

With cars as complex as these, it's hard to be completely certain of anything, but using the level sensors for fuel consumption would seem to make a hard problem much more difficult.

Remember the ECM is not 'monitoring the injectors' as you put it, but commanding the injectors. The ECM calculates how much fuel mass is required for current conditions, and commands the injectors to deliver that amount of fuel. I don't know the D3 petrols in detail, but most if not all modern systems will do this 'per cylinder, per ignition event' so it's very tightly controlled. I'd guess the car as a whole knows how much fuel was used more accurately than it knows the distance travelled.

The measurement of the fuel level from both sensors takes place in the IPC (instrument panel), and that's also where the low fuel warning light decision is made. It's a couple of years since I looked at it, but I think that the fuel gauge stops working if either sender fails - it should be easy to confirm that with a search around the forums. If so, then you could see if the fuel gauge is still working when your MPG display fails?

A few years ago I reverse engineered a lot of the CANBUS messages driving the IPC, but looking back at my notes I can't see that I ever looked at the MPG display, so I don't really know where that's generated, sorry.

2nd Oct 2022 11:00 am

Naki Blake

Member Since: 31 Dec 2021
Location: Taranaki
Posts: 237

Hey Gram-br

Did you proceed with this job?

I'm keen to know how you got on.

Cheers Blake

17th Oct 2022 8:18 am

Gram-br

Member Since: 23 Apr 2021
Location: SAO PAULO
Posts: 15

Hi Naki,

Ended up buying an LR original pump with the WGSxxxx part number (non-recall version). Came fairly quickly from the UK, cost was GBP 1,100 with freight and local taxes. Local LR franchise wanted the equivalent of GBP 1,500.

I left the car with a mechanic last week, the pump is installed and working and he did not report any problems with the installation so I assume my MY '08 was non-recall and the WGSxxx pump was the right part. I am living in an apartment at the moment, so no possibility of me doing it myself. Cost me 4 hours labour with a non-specialized mechanic. Only thing I can tell you about the install is that he supported the tank and lifted the car, rather than dropping the tank out.

No buzzing noise from the new pump and no hot start problems, which I had with the old defective pump, and the car is now is slightly different on start-up. Previously the revs used to 'overshoot' slightly on start-up, before settling to a regular tick-over. Now the car starts and goes directly to tick-over.

Good luck with yours,

Graham MY05 Disco 3 4.4 V8 HSE .... insurance write-off
Replaced with MY08 Disco 3 4.0 V6 base model
'98 Toyota Hilux SW4 V6 for playing in the mud
'03 Brazilian Nissan XTerra Diesel ... my overland car, sold
+ countless others

17th Oct 2022 2:02 pm