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London Lad
Member Since: 27 May 2008
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 505
  
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I don't think anyone would disagree that the Autologic system is the muts nuts.
All I am getting at is that for a owner, as opposed to a repairer, £4k (is that right?) is a lot of money for occasional use. An owner may think £100 ish to read just engine and transmission codes was worth while.
I use £500 Metcal soldering irons, they are streets ahead of a Maplin £10 job but I wouldn't suggest a guy who solders two or three joints a month buys one.
Even the BBS SPY system seems to come to £1100 + if you want to read more than one car and I am still not 100% sure what it can and can't do.
Mr Pike, you keep going on about guessing. If I pull the plug off say the D3s MAF sensor, run the engine and read the code, my cheap reader reads the fault code and translates it into plain English and displays 'P0101 Mass Air Flow Sensor Signal Error Fault'
What does your's do that's different? .
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You should never argue with idiots because they will just drag you down to their level....then beat you with experience !
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 11th Mar 2009 1:46 am |
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Roel
Member Since: 16 Aug 2008
Location: home
Posts: 1215
 
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I am afraid it is probably like always you get what you pay for.
4000 maybe a little less for demonstartion unit plus updates to be paid for, for a proven system.
800 or so for a system that is in development but by a LR enthousiast.
0r around 150 for a simple not complete system.
I would love a full proven system but for that amount I can go often to a dealer. Even if they charge me 100 pounds each time.
If I only could choose from the top or bottum I probably wouldn't buy any. I'll contact autologic anyway to see what deal they can/want to make for a non-commercial buyer. Roel
1997 Camel Trophy Disco ex-P101JWK (traded it for a Britains 42101)
1984 90 TD5
2005 G4 Disco 3 BN55WPT
Also member of club MTR
and Club Faultmate
Interested in my 4x4 history see my website: www.mudmachine.webklik.nl
Sorry it's in Dutch and with google translator it gets funny.
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| 11th Mar 2009 2:14 am |
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Dont_tell_him_Pike
Member Since: 08 Mar 2009
Location: Hove
Posts: 36
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Hi Roel
As said before, i have all the systems & there's nothing i cannot do with a land rover / range rover.
I'm not in a position to promote any particular system as they all do the job thereabouts,& some are better than others.
Just like the soldering iron's, I do have a expensive range solderering & de-soldering stations, hot air etc, but i still manage to occasionally use the little £10 corded thing if it's something quick.
The basic generic readers just wont do the job even though they can cost anything up to £200, if they did Land rovers would be a cheap vehicle to keep on the road.
Unfortunately, the attitudes in these forums are hillarious, so it's difficult to portray a wider opinion of what's good, what's bad etc, & looking at the posts & reading the reply's is reminisent of a school play ground.
It's fun mixing in the same forum as the single garage owners that use just one particular diagnostic system or listening to the owners who have probably never used one in their life.
I haven't a clue why they wish to bring up the how the data is read or to what depths, although it's a good valid point, but useless unless you know about diagnostics & their individual capabilities.
Now i'm not small minded & try to help out where possible, I have technicians around the world who deal with ecu & module issues that we supply & ship out, & their systems that i supply them are vastly superior to the dealers that use us. I'm very fair, if a company say's their systems can do this or that, i'll try them & buy one system, if it's good i'll buy six more.
I'm quite well known in my field of expertise & i love coming into these forums because i'm completely masked, but let me tell you, i find it hilarious.
However Roel, this isn't helping you. so what you need to look at is what's on offer at what cost.
You've got Land rovers own system of T4, Omitec have brought a later one out but forget it, way to expensive.
So T4, does the job, very limited on the individual settings. Probably get an old system for £2k
Ford IDS system, again £2k but you have to know what you're doing with this & it's not much cop for the earlier models. Come to think about it, it falls short on the latest modules to.
Autologic's blue handheld screen. Great tool, will do everything you ask & no more. can be updated at for a price. Last one i was offered was for £2.5k with quite a large module base with full capability.
Blackbox's faultmate single vehicle system, can only be used on one vehicle, although i think they mentioned it can do three with full capability for £700 i think, but check the previous post.
There's your choices, I know what i'd choose.
I'd contact tham all & be a pain in their butt as to what you'd be getting, & make sure that if you're not happy you can get your money back.
Hope this helps Roel.
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| 11th Mar 2009 10:48 am |
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BBS SPY
Site Sponsor
Member Since: 15 Jun 2007
Location: Sunny Cyprus
Posts: 3054
 
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Sorry guys, been a busy couple of days, not had chance to pop in.
DG, the 5 / 7 digit code thing is a bit of an empty promise, its a bit of a joke and and a bit of real smoke and mirrors.
Its a subject covered extensively in our private owners only forums, so all our owners know all about this only too well and its a bit of an insider joke.
There is actually no such thing as a 7 digit fault code at all, and in fact even the 5 digit code is not quite as it seems.
Although we do offer a very low cost system variation which we call FCO for "Fault Codes Only", Fault codes only as far as the Disco 3 is concerened is by no means some small thing. as i shall explain for those who may be interested.
The fault code as read from the ECU is in the form of two hex bytes ie maximum of 4 digits, the first few bits of the first byte give you the letter P, U, C etc, denoting if the fault is related to the power train network or body control etc. The remainder of the hex converts to decimal to give you a number that is appended to the letter.
so four hex digits now becomes what you perceive as a 5 digit fault code.
Naturally we look up and convert absolutely 100% of all possible codes to their text meaning.
all codes below 1000 are of coarse as per OBDII legislation, and any cheap code reader can do that, however 1000 to 9999 is manufacturer defined and only dedicated manufacturer specific equipment can do them.
New to ISO 14229, which is the adopted standard, is another single byte that is used to also convey something referred to as "sub type information" and this byte is converted to decimal, and if you stick it on the end of the 5 digit code you have, as they do in the way they put in GTR, then it looks like some new advanced 7 digit code. Interestingly there are only 93 causal sub type meanings.
We choose not to add the decimal value of this byte to our code, we actually convert it to text and display the proper meaning.
So for example, you might get a fault code P1234: turbocharger pressure incorrect, than the cause type might give us text that says " pressure value too high", so we simply put that to the codes text description.
however for many faults there is no such sub type information and the read value for it is 00
In addition to this there is then a flag byte that tells you if the fault is historic, pending current, mil on etc etc.
So of course we then add all that information.
Next we look to see if there are any snapshot data records stored in the ECU for each fault. There are 4 possible types and there can be several records for each type. if there is we indicate this option and on selecting it, we disassemble that data into the stored values such as odometer value, data and time the fault was stored, which we calculate to how long ago based on the vehicles current data and time. of course things like water temp engine RPM and so forth and all of this is then added and displayed as text information.
Then of course you can hit a button and save the entire page of information as a HTLM page you can call what you wish for later reference.
As i have said before, our system may well be the cheapest, but that does not mean that it is not also the most user feature rich and capable. As Pike says, our equipment may well not be the best choice in all situations, but if you want the cheapest or the most detailed and capable then i don't know of anything that comes close.
and for a private owner its just 400 or 700 ish, (Fault codes only or full spec) which for a true fully really is a world away from anything else.
Pike, are you sure about some of your figures, someone sent me a mail this week and i am sure they said one of the systems you mention was just below 8K and i am sure they were private too. have to look it up.
TFC
Quote:reading the DTC's is just the beginning, interpreting the results with appropriate secondary checks & tests makes the difference between a monkey able to push the right buttons and a diagnostic technician
 finally we agree on something 
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| 11th Mar 2009 2:56 pm |
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Dont_tell_him_Pike
Member Since: 08 Mar 2009
Location: Hove
Posts: 36
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Forgive me Mr. BBS,
I just listed the bottom line prev used prices or prices that they've been offered to me for.
I dont like giving the new boys brand new stuff until i know they can look after it!
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| 11th Mar 2009 4:51 pm |
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Dont_tell_him_Pike
Member Since: 08 Mar 2009
Location: Hove
Posts: 36
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Forgive me London Lad,
'P0101 Mass Air Flow Sensor Signal Error Fault'
I wouldn't get the code, I'll get Mass Air Flow Sensor Signal Fault, Pump active / rail pressure, up & downstream sensor values/ live, & cylinder activity & how many times this fault has occured during how many cycles.
By reading all this data i can pin point this problem within five mins after i've completed the normal interrogation procedures.
But that also depends on what system i'm using.
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| 11th Mar 2009 5:10 pm |
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posh p
Member Since: 24 Jul 2008
Location: here
Posts: 4
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I'm getting bored now cant you go back to your ODB forum and yes I know I've typed ODB   there is enough bull  in this world without me adding my bit
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| 11th Mar 2009 7:22 pm |
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Roel
Member Since: 16 Aug 2008
Location: home
Posts: 1215
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Hello Posh,
You don't have to read all the posts. If you don't like it don't read it. 
I like it as I am interested in this subject.
If you put one up about bling bling wheels I won't read it. (sorry not personal Posh) Roel
1997 Camel Trophy Disco ex-P101JWK (traded it for a Britains 42101)
1984 90 TD5
2005 G4 Disco 3 BN55WPT
Also member of club MTR
and Club Faultmate
Interested in my 4x4 history see my website: www.mudmachine.webklik.nl
Sorry it's in Dutch and with google translator it gets funny.
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| 11th Mar 2009 8:57 pm |
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wiggs
Member Since: 03 Sep 2006
Location: Manchester
Posts: 14368
 
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Lets hope he dosent want any advise when he has fault codes come up on his car G4 Gone ...but not forgotten
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| 11th Mar 2009 9:03 pm |
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DG
Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50934
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BBS SPY wrote:DG, the 5 / 7 digit code thing is a bit of an empty promise, its a bit of a joke and and a bit of real smoke and mirrors.
Its a subject covered extensively in our private owners only forums, so all our owners know all about this only too well and its a bit of an insider joke.
There is actually no such thing as a 7 digit fault code at all, and in fact even the 5 digit code is not quite as it seems.
No point in telling me ..I'm an idiot  I think you'd better tell LR though
GTR wrote:Generic scan tools may not read the codes listed, or may read only 5-digit codes. Match the 5 digits from the scan tool to the first 5 digits of the 7-digit code listed to identify the fault (the last 2 digits give extra information read by the manufacturer-approved diagnostic system).
21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
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| 11th Mar 2009 9:24 pm |
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BBS SPY
Site Sponsor
Member Since: 15 Jun 2007
Location: Sunny Cyprus
Posts: 3054
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I am quite sure that there are many D3 owners who have had no problems with their vehicles so far, and any problems have been covered under warranty and i certainly wish them the best of luck and understand their skepticism. However a few years down the line will ultimately see them a little more appreciative of third party equipment like ours just as those who are forward thiinking already do.
So please for those, feel free to laugh as us and mock us as we will mock you who continue to pay your dealer whatever they decide time after time as your D3 grows older and we rejoice in having the ability to diagnose any problems
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| 11th Mar 2009 9:40 pm |
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10forcash
Member Since: 09 Jun 2005
Location: Ubique
Posts: 16534
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BBS SPY wrote:...as we will mock you who continue to pay your dealer whatever they decide time after time as your D3 grows older and we rejoice in having the ability to diagnose any problems
Not sure i'd be mocking possible future customers  as stated previously, having the ability to read the DTC's and diagnose problems are two completely different issues - hence why I invested in an Autologic system, my customers can call on me to read the DTC's and provide a diagnosis and resolution to their problem... as several Disco3 members have found out to their benefit
Oh, and £400 - 700 can buy an awful lot of of diagnostic time - providing the customer has a working kettle or beer fridge
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| 11th Mar 2009 9:50 pm |
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Roel
Member Since: 16 Aug 2008
Location: home
Posts: 1215
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Maybe I understand this wrong and please correct me in that case so I learn more about this subject.
LR designed faultcodes. A good reader can read all 5 or 7 or how many LR wanted to be read. So faultcode xyz tells via a list or whatever that there is a problem with part A.
Is it thru that whatever good faultreader you have you get the same answer?
But then it is on the quality and experience of the mechanic or person to find the fault and repair it.
example: A high temperature in the engine traced back to the temp.sensor could be the sensor but could also be the cable to the sensor. Or might be something different too.
TFC. How often do you come over to The Netherlands for 400 pounds? I take care of the tea or beer whatever you prefer. Roel
1997 Camel Trophy Disco ex-P101JWK (traded it for a Britains 42101)
1984 90 TD5
2005 G4 Disco 3 BN55WPT
Also member of club MTR
and Club Faultmate
Interested in my 4x4 history see my website: www.mudmachine.webklik.nl
Sorry it's in Dutch and with google translator it gets funny.
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| 11th Mar 2009 10:16 pm |
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10forcash
Member Since: 09 Jun 2005
Location: Ubique
Posts: 16534
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BTW, the Autologic can also read dynamic data, this ability has provided me with information to succesfully diagnose injector problems on five D3's in the last month - in three cases, DTC's were not logged but an 'ear' for the TDV6 and a quick look at the cylinder balance values were enough to confidently diagnose which injector was knackered in all cases http://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/post432723.html#432723
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| 11th Mar 2009 10:47 pm |
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Roel
Member Since: 16 Aug 2008
Location: home
Posts: 1215
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I think this has more to do with your feel and experience then with what system you use as most systems claim the can read sensor values.
That is why I said:
But then it is on the quality and experience of the mechanic or person to find the fault and repair it.
You can have a good tool but if you don't know how to use it, it is useless. Roel
1997 Camel Trophy Disco ex-P101JWK (traded it for a Britains 42101)
1984 90 TD5
2005 G4 Disco 3 BN55WPT
Also member of club MTR
and Club Faultmate
Interested in my 4x4 history see my website: www.mudmachine.webklik.nl
Sorry it's in Dutch and with google translator it gets funny.
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| 11th Mar 2009 11:22 pm |
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