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747_JK
Member Since: 03 Apr 2010
Location: Surrey
Posts: 268
  
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| My D4 smoking is “representative of the marqueâ€, say LR |
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In an email from Land Rover’s Customer Relationship Centre this month, the smoke I see pouring out of the exhaust of my Jan 2010-registered Discovery 4 HSE each day, as pictured below, is “representative of the marqueâ€.
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Quite frankly, I’m amazed this should be considered satisfactory… Let alone for an owner whose Discovery has endured multiple engine problems since being purchased in April 2010. In the first 12 months in my ownership, my car spent 25% of its life in the Harwoods Croydon workshop with an engine which wouldn’t quit smoking, and later having a new engine installed (after a complete engine failure whilst I was driving, at 14k miles). You can read about that here: http://www.disco4.com/forum/topic55820.html
With engine number two fitted in Feb 2011, I had zero confidence in the driveline, so I asked Land Rover’s Customer Relationship Centre to extend my warranty for a fourth year. They agreed.
But in April 2013 my car’s smoking habit returned. Armed with my extended warranty from Land Rover, I asked them to investigate and fix the problem.
Between May and September my car has been back to my dealer on five separate occasions – spending weeks at the dealership. On each of the first four visits to the dealer it’s been given back to me as being fixed, but on every occasion the smoking has continued. It’s had just about every engine test the dealer can throw at it. Yet every test says it is operating normally. For the record, the dealer has been most helpful - it's Land Rover which seems happy to leave me with a car which I consider to be in an unsatisfactory condition.
It’s also had the ‘official fixes / modifications’ for this ‘smoking problem’ carried out, and this year alone it’s had new primary and secondary turbochargers fitted under warranty too. In total, I think this car is up to at least five different turbos in its life. But the problem remains.
Before visit number four to the dealer in August (which saw it off the road for a further 2 weeks), I wanted to ensure Land Rover understood the ‘history’ of my car, so I made them this short video and asked them for a permanent resolution proposition to my problems:
http://youtu.be/xukQs7oJCcc
This time Land Rover sent one of its own engineers to look at my car. More parts were changed and the vehicle was delivered back to me as being ‘fixed’. But it wasn’t. The very next day I made this next recording. I wanted to provide the clearest possible evidence that the problem was anything but resolved. I also wanted to show that the smoking didn’t just happen on the first start of the day – it could also happen on subsequent starts too, and even when pulling away from a standstill.
http://youtu.be/MQgp5p7FYe8
So again I spoke to Land Rover’s Customer Support Centre. They were deeply apologetic and arranged for the car to go back to Harwoods, again. This time they wanted to send a different Land Rover engineer to see the car whilst it was at the dealership. I asked the Customer Relationship Centre what they planned on doing which they hadn’t done on the four earlier trips to the dealership, and I was assured this time they hoped to find a permanent fix.
They had the car for two days of testing and I was told by the Aftersales Manager at my dealer that the engineer would write an official report, and I’d hear from Land Rover directly. That email has now arrived, and it reads:
Dear Mr XXXXXXXXX
Land Rover Discovery - XXXX - XX XXXX
Further to your recent visit to Harwoods Croydon, I have now received the results from the engineer who inspected and tested your vehicle, and I can advise the following:
The vehicle was tested from a cold start, smoke was present.
He then carried out further tests alongside two like for like vehicles (Non DPF) both with similar mileage and all three vehicles exhibited the same level of smoke from both a cold start and when pulling away. The same test was carried out again the following day, with the same results.
I understand that XXXXXX (the dealer Aftersales Manager) has discussed the above information with you and that as your vehicle is not fitted with a DPF, it will exhibit some level of smoke from a cold start and on pulling away.
In conclusion, no further action will be taken as the vehicle is representative of the marque.
Yours sincerely
XXXXX XXXXX
Senior Customer Relations Executive
This email leaves me enraged. I have a premium car with a foul smoking habit. Every time I start the car from cold it spews nasty, foul smelling smoke (and trust me, it really is unpleasant). Try pressing the Start button in a busy car park when the family next to you are loading their shopping, or when parked in the high street outside Costa Coffee, and I won’t quote the reactions I experience. It also smokes pretty much whenever I accelerate with purpose – be it from a standstill trying to get out onto a busy roundabout, or at speed on a main road. I’ve lost count of the number of foul looks from other drivers, or shouts from pedestrians and cyclists who get covered in smoke from my polluting engine.
Now, here’s the point I have made to Land Rover… My car did not smoke for 35,000 miles after its second engine was fitted, and I don’t see why it should now – especially not when the engine is less than three years old (and the car less than four). The car has been impeccably maintained – even ‘over-serviced’ in its lifetime, always by Harwoods. It has never had supermarket fuel.
If this is truly “representative of the marqueâ€, as Land Rover now claim, why have Land Rover, Land Rover’s extended warranty company and the dealer spent five months trying to fix it, changing parts and apologising profusely to me for the troubles I am having?
If my car had a new engine, it wouldn’t smoke. It didn't in 2011 or 2012, and it won't again. There’s clearly an issue with the engine (indeed, the dealer found swarf in the oil back in May), but Land Rover – as they have now put in writing to me – say no further action will be taken.
I’d welcome your comments, and please take a moment to check out the two YouTube video links above.
With thanks, as always, to all the experts in this forum.
Admin note: this post has had its images recovered from a money grabbing photo hosting site and reinstated  747_JK
"Moab is my happy place"
2019 Land Rover Discovery 5 HSE
2015 Land Rover Discovery 4 HSE - SOLD
2010 Land Rover Discovery 4 HSE with a serious smoking habit - SOLD
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 12th Oct 2013 5:39 pm |
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Bigcol66
Member Since: 28 Jul 2010
Location: Welshpool, Powys
Posts: 775
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I have March 2010 D4 that has done 100,000 miles and does not smoke like yours (thankfully).
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| 12th Oct 2013 6:19 pm |
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747_JK
Member Since: 03 Apr 2010
Location: Surrey
Posts: 268
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Hmmm, most interesting Bigcol66. Thank you. It would be really useful if other people on the forum with Euro 4 non-DPF D4's with the TDV6 3.0 litre engine could let me know if their car smokes like mine? 747_JK
"Moab is my happy place"
2019 Land Rover Discovery 5 HSE
2015 Land Rover Discovery 4 HSE - SOLD
2010 Land Rover Discovery 4 HSE with a serious smoking habit - SOLD
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| 12th Oct 2013 6:23 pm |
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dsd1036
Member Since: 27 Feb 2010
Location: Surrey
Posts: 2692
 
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Mines not a D4 so can't really comment,except to say unfortunately that particular dealer tried to fleece me once,never again!
Personally that smoking like that doesn't seem right to me 
Hope you get enough input on here to fire back at them You could try sending a message to Liam@Landrover customer services on here,he may be able to help you take this further.
Rgds
Darrell 
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| 12th Oct 2013 7:49 pm |
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alastaid
Member Since: 31 May 2011
Location: York
Posts: 93
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Same here, I have a March 2010 D4 HSE with 80K, doesn't smoke, again thankfully.
Alastair
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| 13th Oct 2013 5:08 am |
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adam
Member Since: 20 Sep 2005
Location: Home and Happy
Posts: 6917
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747 – I’ve followed your post over the past couple of years
I have a March 2010 D4 with 60K on the clock
It will (occasionally) smoke a bit on start-up when egine stone cold (usually when temp less than 8 ish degrees) - but if I do a 'double start' (ignition on, go through cycle, ignition off, ignition on, go through cycle - start) - no smoke
Smoke is definitely diesel fuel (can tell by smell)
If I really boot it at speed, it will smoke, but then clears - if I boot it again, no smoke
Oil consumption is nothing
It’s been doing this for the past 2 years – I do a lot of around town driving (all low revs) usually longer motorway journey twice a month – and I am a ‘cautious’ driver
Mine appears nowhere near as smokey as yours – certainly never had comments from family / pedestrians ect
D3 I had for 5 years would smoke if I really booted it, but never noticed it on start up
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| 13th Oct 2013 7:42 am |
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caverD3
Member Since: 02 Jul 2006
Location: Oberon, NSW
Posts: 6922
 
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I have a Fuji white D4 white has a black bum as a result of smoke. I think the 3.0L engine has an over fuel issue. It would seem worse on start-up so normal but not satisfactory for me either. I had the oil drain mod done which reduced the smoke when booting it (bluish) but still get smoking sometimes.
Has anyone got theirs remapped and seen any difference?  “There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely gamesâ€
Ernest Hemmingway
D4 3.0 Active Diff, Adaptive Lights, High Beam Assist, Surround Cameras, Privacy Glass.
D3 2.7:Adaptive Headlights,Electronic Rear Diff,ARB Bar,Blaupunkt Speakers,JVC Powered Subwoofer,Removable Snorkel,Mitch Hitch,Pioneer After Market Head Unit,Steering Wheel Control Adaptor,Remote Adjustable Supension Rod System, Taxside Dual Battery System.
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| 13th Oct 2013 8:05 am |
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BLFarrar
Member Since: 02 Aug 2006
Location: Deepest, Dankest, Darkest, Dingiest......Le Halifax, West Yorkshire...with strong links to Ireland
Posts: 6222
 
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how much engine oil does your D4 go through ?
I realise this fundamentally depends on the type of driving you actually do ....stop start - short journeys or long motorway hauls at realistic (but almost legal) speeds...
if you are adding litres per 1000 miles ...I believe you indeed have a problem...its the blueness of the smoke that worries me...
also are there other faults such as rough running or excessively high fuel consumption (low mpg)
I have to assume you are using "good" not cheapo oil & you service or have your D4 serviced...& you arent one of those on here that believed in adding extra additives.....or you have had mods such as remapping done
Engines have to consume oil....the engine sump oil has to get to all the piston rings to ensure these dont stick in or wear or score the engine cylinder bores...
my disco 3 has 78k on the clock & uses maybe 1/2 to 3/4 of a litre between services (at 14k)...no smoke whatsoever
I also swap the engine oil at mid point BREXIT - done properly.
Right now ...We need Government - not Politics
Save the Dipstick Flagbearer-keep it simple, less likely to fail campaign-agenda items:Starting Handles, Acetylene Lamps.
Founder: Dipsticks-R-Us Inc
D3 HSE-perfectly formed, passenger friendly...has real DIPSTICK
Jag XK-but sadly no DIPSTICK...HUGE design fault
FL2 has DIPSTICK..."real comfort in rear seats"
VW Golf wondermobile (?)..has real DIPSTICK
Morris Minor..original DIPSTICK technology..and a real KEY.
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| 13th Oct 2013 8:14 am |
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caverD3
Member Since: 02 Jul 2006
Location: Oberon, NSW
Posts: 6922
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They definitely improved the issue for you but not gone. Has the turbo drain mod been done on the new engine? “There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely gamesâ€
Ernest Hemmingway
D4 3.0 Active Diff, Adaptive Lights, High Beam Assist, Surround Cameras, Privacy Glass.
D3 2.7:Adaptive Headlights,Electronic Rear Diff,ARB Bar,Blaupunkt Speakers,JVC Powered Subwoofer,Removable Snorkel,Mitch Hitch,Pioneer After Market Head Unit,Steering Wheel Control Adaptor,Remote Adjustable Supension Rod System, Taxside Dual Battery System.
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| 13th Oct 2013 8:16 am |
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Farmer Chalk
Member Since: 06 Mar 2013
Location: Independent Republic of Kentishshire.
Posts: 4197
 
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Daring to be devils advocate..it also depends on how you drive it... In each of your video clips you're clearly giving it the beans from start ...all engines will produce smoke if you cane it especially when cold until the rings and liners have had chance to expand...
All early diesels especially lorry engines do that but after a minute of running and warmed up it stops as the clearance between ring and liner has reduced due to thermal expansion...
If you cane an engine from cold continuously you're going to get rapid wear and the problems you may be now experiencing ....
Sorry to be controversial ..... But each argument needs to be looked at in order to give a decided judgement... 
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| 13th Oct 2013 8:27 am |
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DG
Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50979
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FC 21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
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| 13th Oct 2013 8:54 am |
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steveraspberry
Member Since: 18 Sep 2011
Location: Nr Sevenoaks,Kent
Posts: 2081
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On our 5th D4 and not had any of these problems on any of them personally. I always start them without much gas then let them idle whilst going through seat belts/suspension setting etc. Never seen anything like the OP is reporting. My17 Volvo XC90 Inscription
MY15 Mitsubishi L200 Barbarian
RGK Tiga Fx Wheelchair,
Large Alsation called Abbs 
Medium blue Staffie called Piglet
Medium Alsation called Bailey
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| 13th Oct 2013 9:20 am |
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dangerdave
Member Since: 23 Nov 2010
Location: <>
Posts: 4495
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Admin note: post content removed at user request
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| 13th Oct 2013 9:32 am |
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BLFarrar
Member Since: 02 Aug 2006
Location: Deepest, Dankest, Darkest, Dingiest......Le Halifax, West Yorkshire...with strong links to Ireland
Posts: 6222
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do a specific task the upper ones seal the combustion gasses the lower ones scrape the bores....the oil that is splashed up & gets there because of oil mist that has to be regulated...
There are very small apertures that allow oil to pass each way besides the rings having to spring out to hug the cylinder bores...clever technology...& not new....the company called Hepworth & Grandage in Bradford & Wellworthy near Southampton developed this to what it is in piston aero engines before & during the war
We tend to forget the fact they are there & bung any old oil in (& hope for the best best or dont care) & worse still neglect service intervals...
When an engine is"dow" & burns too much oil & falls emission tests its the piston rings (& maybe just one cylinder) that has failed...
Petrol engines benefit from upper cylinder lubricants (Redex being just one & probably the best)...
I use Redex in my D3 hoping the benefit of adding a lubricant that finds its way in from the combustion space as opposed to the engine oil...
Large marine diesels have separate lubricants & lubricant system for each aspect of the engine...the cylinder lube oil (CLO) being the most critical....BP (with Alexander Duckhams) pioneered CLO's in the 70's that transformed large marine diesel engines.....vehicle engines are a compromise...but its a compromise that seems to work well BREXIT - done properly.
Right now ...We need Government - not Politics
Save the Dipstick Flagbearer-keep it simple, less likely to fail campaign-agenda items:Starting Handles, Acetylene Lamps.
Founder: Dipsticks-R-Us Inc
D3 HSE-perfectly formed, passenger friendly...has real DIPSTICK
Jag XK-but sadly no DIPSTICK...HUGE design fault
FL2 has DIPSTICK..."real comfort in rear seats"
VW Golf wondermobile (?)..has real DIPSTICK
Morris Minor..original DIPSTICK technology..and a real KEY.
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| 13th Oct 2013 9:37 am |
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747_JK
Member Since: 03 Apr 2010
Location: Surrey
Posts: 268
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Thank you everyone for your feedback. In reply:
dsd1036: Agreed. Nor does it seem right to me, nor any of the people I work with. My car is the cause of much humour in my office. Our car park is surrounded by 4m high brick walls, and accessed via a 'tunnel'. No one wants to be in the car parks with me at the end of the day when I start my car, unless all their doors are shut and they are driving away...
alastaid: Thanks for letting me know. Want to swap?!
adam: Interesting that yours has similar mileage and will only occasionally smoke. I'm up to 63k now, but remember my engine was also replaced at 14k. None of the footage I filmed was on a day when it was anywhere near 8 degrees C. It was mostly all filmed over the Summer - it's just as smoky when it's bright sunshine and 20+ degrees.
Also interesting that if you boot yours it smokes, but then won't smoke again on the same journey. That used to be the case with my last engine, but with this engine, it will smoke every time you accelerate hard. That's why in the videos I repeatedly asked my wife to accelerate away with intention (but not foot flat), to show LR that this isn't a "once and then forgotten" symptom, it is continual.
My oil consumption is also very low - nothing abnormal. However, the dealer did find swarf in my oil back in May, and to the best of my knowledge this is so far unexplained. They did not define which metal it was, to enable an accurate analysis of where the excessive wear was coming from to be made.
My driving style is similar to yours. I also am a cautious driver. I have a 6-mile commute to work each-way. At least once a week I will do much higher mileage - Birmingham, Manchester, Corby etc, usually with a return on the same day. Motorway cruising all at circa 70 - 80 mph.
caverD3: I think I'm glad that I ordered mine in black then! Thank you for sharing your experience. And yes, the turbo drain mod was carried out. And I agree, things have improved from where we were in May, but certainly not to the extent to which I think a customer should be satisfied with. I still get a lot of smoke on start-up. One of my biggest issues is on starting the car, and the cloud of really rancid smelling smoke drifting over whoever might be near. It isn't pleasant.
BLFarrar: Oil usage as per the above. Nothing abnormal that I can notice. But yes, the blue smoke is worrying.
No other such faults which occur regularly. I did have a couple of instances of incredibly rough running back in May - so rough, I was stopped by a Policeman at circa 6am in central London and told my car sounded awful and was it ok? I recorded the sound. LR say it was a loose heat shield rubbing on the tyre. I told them it couldn't be, as when I recorded the actual noise I was parked at the side of the road, so nothing was rubbing on a moving tyre. Since that day, the sound has not come back. Here it is:
http://youtu.be/-2_AKwyAKvI
I used to work for an oil company, so I know about the benefits of good fuel. My car has never - ever - had supermarket diesel. At least one tank in 4 is the more expensive stuff, and I usually only ever fill-up at BP or Shell, as my fuel records testify.
Farmer Chalk: You make a valid point. I've said to Land Rover that the only way to (safely) film the smoke when accelerating is on a quiet road, with someone stood behind the car - I wanted to show them that it happens time and time again, not once a day only. Hence the driving style adopted in that footage.
My journey home from work involves a number of roundabouts, all of which are congested and where the only way to keep traffic moving is to react quickly. And in a big, heavy, car, that does mean a certain amount of welly is needed to get out. I guess I should just be glad, as should other motorists, that this car isn't in Milton Keynes too often.
My driving style is very standard. I keep an eye on fuel economy, so do not drive aggressively (again, LR are welcome to plug my car in to their diagnostics and analyse my driving style - there would nothing unusual in how I use my car). If anything, since moving from a 335d BMW, my driving style has taken much more of an 'old man' approach! I'm happy to take longer to get places, in return for the comfier driving position and better view!
You say "all early diesels do that but after a minute of running it stops" - again, the point of my video was to show that on my car it doesn't stop. And not all lorry (please, can we call them trucks!) engines do do this. I work in the road transport sector. I am frequently in haulage company yards and truck dealerships, and modern trucks do not smoke all the time. You can fire up the engine on a 44 tonne 6x2 tractor and not expect it to push out smoke every time like my D4 is doing.
Again, this is a Euro IV engine. It is less than 3 years old, it has done circa 49k miles in its life, it is only ever given the correct grade of LR-approved oil, quality diesel, the car has been over-serviced always by Harwoods Croydon and it didn't smoke like this between the new engine being fitted in Feb '11 and the early part of '13. It is clearly not designed to smoke, nor - I firmly believe - should it. 747_JK
"Moab is my happy place"
2019 Land Rover Discovery 5 HSE
2015 Land Rover Discovery 4 HSE - SOLD
2010 Land Rover Discovery 4 HSE with a serious smoking habit - SOLD
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| 13th Oct 2013 9:49 am |
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