Member Since: 06 Dec 2010
Location: Canberra
Posts: 1130
BrettKaz wrote:
I am retired from offering tech opinion due to ing Up so many but in OJ style ...
Hey Brett is is a forum - a forum of opinions not necessarily facts, though some people think whatever they say is fact. Ultimately it is to the original poster in a thread to decide what they use and dont use.
In my experience all opinions - right or wrong are helpful and it is often the processing of going through something that is maybe wrong that causes the light to come on and fix the issue.
Logic says there should only be one hole that the pin can go into but I have been involved with Landrovers for 40 years and I have long ago learned that where they are concerned logic does not necessarily apply.
So please continue to offer your tech and other opinions - after all you are one of the few drivers versus professional Land rover maintainers that will have gone through the process of pulling out engines - a lot of experience there
Garry
28th Jun 2017 11:59 am
gilesharrison
Member Since: 23 Oct 2016
Location: Penrith
Posts: 143
I think everyone who uses this forum is well aware that everything that is written is not gospel. I agree that it's the OPs choice as to whether or not to act on any advice offered. I am very grateful for the assistance offered and I wouldn't want anyone to avoid assisting for fear of making mistakes.
Anyway, I've been looking at pictures of flexplates. There appear to be lots of different designs.
I've attached a photo which a believe is the same as mine. I've labelled (with letters) the four torque converter bolt holes. There are then a number of other holes labelled with numbers. I think I'm looking at setting the timing pin in either hole 1 or 2.
For reference, the car is a 2005 2.7 TDV6, UK spec, auto.
28th Jun 2017 12:26 pm
BrettKaz
Member Since: 11 Nov 2013
Location: Canberra
Posts: 209
A couple of quick points:
- my understanding is you have a 'balancing drilling' at about 3.45 o'clock (if it were on the photo) I have 3 at about 6.30 - only the 5 holes noted are common
- the cam wheels spin at half the speed of the crank so you may be 180 degrees out (at the Cam) and have to rotate the crank one full revolution so the 3 pins (roughly) line up.
Finally
- just remember where we started here - Mikey said the 3 pins should broadly line up.... if they are significantly out after you have worked thru the above then that doesn't make sense. The engine would clatter and implode (10 degrees is a lot) .... you should call an LR mech or better still one of the forum pro's and have them take a look before you make significant changes. It's not a game...
I think hole number one is 3 o'clock on the photo - which is the timing pin hole.
28th Jun 2017 12:48 pm
gilesharrison
Member Since: 23 Oct 2016
Location: Penrith
Posts: 143
I was going to go for hole number 1 as it is closest to the original position.
I'm not sure that the crackshaft spins at double speed in relation to the cams. I haven't counted the pulley teeth but they look about the same.
I was wondering about the other balancing holes - perhaps they all have differing hole patterns as they are drilled as required during manufacturing.
Thanks again. I'll let you know how this goes when I get it all put together again. I appreciate your point about not taking risks but the set up we're talking about is only slightly different from the old timing and the car was running ok with that.
28th Jun 2017 1:35 pm
Disco_Mikey
Member Since: 29 May 2007
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Posts: 20841
The flywheel timing hole is not perfectly round, it has 2 "flats" at the top and bottom of the opening, as per hole 1 inn your picture My D3 Build Thread
Member Since: 18 Feb 2016
Location: Effingham
Posts: 237
The cams definitely do 1/2 of crank rpm New gearbox & TC, 3 x front wheel bearings, belts changed, new oil pump, new battery, new rear prop, new front prop, new front diff, front arb refurbed, front cv boot kit, egr blank and BAS software patch, full rear suspension / drivelive rebuild, new front arms, LED trailer light fix, split charge.
Never had a 107, 90 or 127, but have had most of the rest!
28th Jun 2017 5:01 pm
Pete K
Member Since: 15 Jan 2016
Location: GL
Posts: 10678
For every 1 revolution of the cam, the crank does 2 revolutions.
(Note the crank bit is much smaller than the cam wheels.
If you didn't know this, this will be why you think the engine is significantly timed wrong.
And as you said it was running before, it must have been about correct.
If you still have the old belt on rotate the crank around 1 revolution and see if the cam holes start to look in the correct place for locking
28th Jun 2017 5:02 pm
gilesharrison
Member Since: 23 Oct 2016
Location: Penrith
Posts: 143
Disco_Mikey wrote:
The flywheel timing hole is not perfectly round, it has 2 "flats" at the top and bottom of the opening, as per hole 1 inn your picture
Brilliant, thanks. That's exactly what I needed to know.
I've had another look at the pulleys on the camshaft and cranks and as you say, they are very obviously different sizes.
Re: the old timing. When I say significantly out, I'm talking about the two camshaft being different. In the old timing position, when one cam locking pin was in place, the other cam was about 30 degrees away from the locking position.
28th Jun 2017 6:07 pm
BrettKaz
Member Since: 11 Nov 2013
Location: Canberra
Posts: 209
Pete K wrote:
For every 1 revolution of the cam, the crank does 2 revolutions.
If you still have the old belt on rotate the crank around 1 revolution and see if the cam holes start to look in the correct place for locking
One final point that Pete raises... I have assumed this entire time that you still have the timing belt on. Given you were unaware that the cams spin at half the revs of the crank then if you have taken off the belt and rotated the crank and not sure of it's original starting position (cycle 1 or cycle 2) then definitely get in a pro to sort it.... Otherwise it's Russian roulette with a 2 chamber gun.
28th Jun 2017 10:49 pm
gilesharrison
Member Since: 23 Oct 2016
Location: Penrith
Posts: 143
I kept the timing belt on whilst getting the cam locking pins in place - this also got the flywheel in the right area (there are also some old paint marks on the crackshaft from a previous belt change which I have been using as a guide, but not completely trusting.
I'm then looking at the flexplate but it was sitting between the two holes (numbers 1 and 2 on my picture). I removed the cambelt and adjusted the flywheel about 50mm clockwise and anti-clockwise, just to inspect the layout of the holes.
Thanks for your concern, but I'm confident that I haven't moved the flexplate 180 degrees. Although I think my old timing was incorrect, I'm only talking about small amounts.
29th Jun 2017 8:32 am
gilesharrison
Member Since: 23 Oct 2016
Location: Penrith
Posts: 143
I've now got the car back together and I can report all is well.
Using Disco Mikey's advice, I used the timing hole - it does clearly have flattened sides, as he said. Although my flexplate locking tooth did fit into come other holes, it fitted better (more easily) into the correct timing hole. For reference, the correct timing hole was around 40mm away from the original timing position.
With the flex plate locked in position, one of the cam locking tools slotted in nicely, but the other was around 1 hour out (in big hand terms!). I corrected this and reassembled everything. Turned it all over a few times by hand to check there were no obstruction.
Incidentally, the crankshaft pulley had three different sets of markings from previous cambelt work. These were all very different, so it's clearly been messed about with before.
Anyway, the car starts and runs well. The cold idle is significantly improved and the car settled instantly into a smooth idle when starting. Formerly, it was rough for around 5 seconds before settling down. When up to temperature, it isn't massively different but it wasn't too bad anyway. I used to get some smoke on cold starts in cold weather. Hopefully that'll have improved but it's hard to tell at the moment.
Previously, I had odd injector values - all injectors are new. One bank was running around 1300 and the other bank around 700. DiscoMikey suggested that my timing may be off, and that was what led me to investigate this. Since sorting the timing, the values are much better, all between 900 and 1150.
I would like to thank everyone who has helped me here, particularly DiscoMikey. Without your original suggestion of investigating the timing, I certainly wouldn't have got to the bottom of this.
30th Jun 2017 12:04 pm
Disco_Mikey
Member Since: 29 May 2007
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Posts: 20841
Member Since: 01 Aug 2016
Location: Bathgate
Posts: 34
gilesharrison, given DM advice regarding the correct timing hole being the one that has clear flattened sides. Is this the only hole in the flywheel that you can say has this 'flattened sides' feature?
17th Jul 2017 9:11 am
gilesharrison
Member Since: 23 Oct 2016
Location: Penrith
Posts: 143
Yes. I had one hole with flattened sides but numerous round holes.
I'd say the 'hole with flattened sides' was slightly bigger than the others but I didn't measure them.
I'm glad I spent the time ensuring the timing is bang on. The engine just feels smoother and more willing now.
17th Jul 2017 9:12 pm
DerrekL
Member Since: 01 Aug 2016
Location: Bathgate
Posts: 34
anyone know the techy detail of how the locking mechanism works on the flywheel i.e. when the locking pin is inserted into the correct flywheel hole, what exactly is it locking against behind the flywheel. I'm just trying to get a picture of what actually goes on when locking the flywheel is setup.
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ing Up so many but in OJ style ... 
