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Leon
Member Since: 26 Apr 2014
Location: Leamington Spa
Posts: 434
  
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nigel207 wrote:Having been involved with tow car testing for the past eleven years, part of the test is towing on a dual-carriageway (test track at MIRA) at 60 mph. If the outfit feels stable at 60, it is suggested that we do the return at 70 mph. Most things there are stable at 60 mph (perfectly ballasted caravans for each individual car, with ideal noseweights, and perfectly flat roads with no other traffic), but it’s amazing how much instability creeps in between 60 and 70. There are some VERY popular tow cars that IMHO are downright dangerous at 70!
Even the D5 isn’t as stable as the D4 was (evidenced by live data from the caravan ATC system monitored by an engineer from Al-Ko), but the ONLY cars that I’ve taken above 70 (for the hell of it - but remember it’s on test tracks!) are the D4, D5, RR Sport (old and new), FFRR (old and new) and latterly the Velar.
There are some very good tow cars made by other manufacturers, but without being biased, the best is the D4!
I generally tow at 55-60 with my own, after all, we’re on holiday so what’s the rush?
Sounds like your the guy to ask-
Does the ATC actually make any difference?.
We go to a site quite often using the same A road.
One particular part has a slight twist on it that tilts the caravan from side to side (still in control of it no problem) but the ATC cuts in and slows the whole outfit down, really good considering it's right at the bottom of a big hill.
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 7th May 2018 7:17 pm |
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lynalldiscovery
Member Since: 22 Dec 2009
Location: Maidstone
Posts: 7274
  
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Pelyma wrote:+1 uphill is where really shows it’s ability, but you can find you’re being naughty if you’re not careful. I have to say I find towing at 55-60 far more dangerous than keeping a steady 65-70 in good conditions as it keeps you up with the traffic and out of the clutches of the hgvs.
Wise man indeed, Ive always wondered what makes people hang around hgvs, they are dangerous on the best of days
I would bet a cup of coffee just about every hgv driver thinks caravaners are muppets of the higest order 
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| 7th May 2018 7:26 pm |
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nigel207
Member Since: 26 Mar 2009
Location: Nottinghamshire
Posts: 1359
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Leon wrote:nigel207 wrote:Having been involved with tow car testing for the past eleven years, part of the test is towing on a dual-carriageway (test track at MIRA) at 60 mph. If the outfit feels stable at 60, it is suggested that we do the return at 70 mph. Most things there are stable at 60 mph (perfectly ballasted caravans for each individual car, with ideal noseweights, and perfectly flat roads with no other traffic), but it’s amazing how much instability creeps in between 60 and 70. There are some VERY popular tow cars that IMHO are downright dangerous at 70!
Even the D5 isn’t as stable as the D4 was (evidenced by live data from the caravan ATC system monitored by an engineer from Al-Ko), but the ONLY cars that I’ve taken above 70 (for the hell of it - but remember it’s on test tracks!) are the D4, D5, RR Sport (old and new), FFRR (old and new) and latterly the Velar.
There are some very good tow cars made by other manufacturers, but without being biased, the best is the D4!
I generally tow at 55-60 with my own, after all, we’re on holiday so what’s the rush?
Sounds like your the guy to ask-
Does the ATC actually make any difference?.
We go to a site quite often using the same A road.
One particular part has a slight twist on it that tilts the caravan from side to side (still in control of it no problem) but the ATC cuts in and slows the whole outfit down, really good considering it's right at the bottom of a big hill.
On the caravans we use, the ATC units are there solely for us to get the data with regards to yaw rates etc, and aren’t actually connected to the brakes.
However, on our own caravan (and the one before the current one) we have ATC, which I thought had cut in from time to time. However, Al-Ko did a data download from ours and there were only two recorded operations, and one of those was at their premises when I crossed a vicious speed bump at walking pace!
We’ve also had the feeling when testing some of the tow cars, despite the ATC not operating. So the only conclusion we can come to is that ut’s the car’s trailer stability control cutting in rather than the ATC.
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| 7th May 2018 7:41 pm |
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Leon
Member Since: 26 Apr 2014
Location: Leamington Spa
Posts: 434
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Really interesting reading , thanks for that info. 
Didn't know that the ATC unit can hold activation data.
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| 7th May 2018 8:03 pm |
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nigel207
Member Since: 26 Mar 2009
Location: Nottinghamshire
Posts: 1359
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Yes, the units do store the data, although whether a dealer has the equipment to see it I wouldn’t know. I suspect that they might as if there’s a problem Al-Ko would probably want to see the data. Obviously Al-Ko can.
It’s also interesting seeing the live data during testing, especially when a but if instability creeps in. Fortunately we’ve always managed to keep the lateral yaw lines on the computer screen! We’d be in deep do-do’s if they went off the screen1 
The D4’s trailer stability control does seem to be quite sensitive, but at the end of the day it’s only doing what it’s supposed to do.
Personally, I think (and have mentioned within the caravan industry) that ATC (or equivalent) should be a mandatory fit on all caravans/trailers, as it’s a safety item. Whilst Al-Ko would never say so (and quite properly), in theory with ATC fitted it should be almost impossible to get into a severe ‘snake’ resulting in a loss of control.
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| 8th May 2018 6:46 am |
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James W
Member Since: 27 Mar 2008
Location: Riyadh, KSA
Posts: 3079
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What sensors does ATC operate on? Pitch, Yaw, Tilt, Wheel speed, etc?
Interesting stuff  D4 XS, gone, much loved, never forgotten
2018 FFRR SDV8 Autobiography - Gone to someone with less sense and more time to enjoy it 
2016 Toyota Hilux Invincible - Liberating experience
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| 8th May 2018 7:09 am |
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al cope
Member Since: 08 Nov 2005
Location: Oldbury, WM
Posts: 10361
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The feeling of stabilty can be down to the 'van/car combination. I know on my Abbey Spectrum (T/A) on the back of the D3, at 55 it didnt feel planted at all, but at 62 it did. Its almost like the slighty faster airflow caused it to "hunker down" and smooth out.
With the Bailey (again T/A) it didnt seem to matter at all, it felt OK at whatever speed (and I did once in France whilst tussling with a gypo Merc sprinter and tabbart on the back) push it really quite high for a mile or so and it never moved - not something I will do again but it was nice to know the D4/Baily combo was solid.
For me, the D4 and 'van seem suited to happily cruising mid 60's.
Al Volvo XC90 B5 Plus Dark
Gone - MY18 D5 HSE - Corris on 22's with Black Pack
Now gone - MY16 D4 SE Tech, Loire Blue, Almond Leather, Privacy, plus some other goodies.
Old - MY12 D4 SDV6 XS Auto - Ipanema Sand with Almond Leather - Plus other niceties, and D4.com sticker
Older - D3 TDV6 XS Auto - Lugano Teal with Almond Leather, 20" Stormers, Shiny Tailpipes, DVD/TV - and obligatory D3 sticker
Ancient - D3 TDV6 S - Tonga with Ebony, 20" Stormers, satnav & DVD
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| 8th May 2018 7:11 am |
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professorpool
Member Since: 19 Mar 2012
Location: Woking
Posts: 3213
 
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peter.green wrote:I astounds me the stupidity of some caravan owners. mind you once was over taken by a Nisan Micra towing a caravan on the M8  thing was swinging between 2 lanes thankfully plod was behind him blues and two's going and pulled him over hope they banned him for life.
Banning someone for life for owning a caravan is a bit extreme but I feel your pain.
Perhaps a severe shoeing will do? D3 07 SE - still going strong
D3 07 HSE - gone to car heaven
FL1 - gone to Romania
D3 05 HSE - gone to a divorce diet
D1 V8 manual - gone but not forgotten
RR Classic - gone to car heaven
Jeeps, Lexus, X-trails... Too many to name..
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| 8th May 2018 7:35 am |
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Russell
Member Since: 23 Aug 2007
Location: Kent
Posts: 10564
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I normally tow at 60 ish however on French motorway last year very late at night I thought the unit felt a uncomfortable and looked at the speed, I was doing 75 down hill  , slowed down and found a place to have a break and sleep
I must say though, it did feel a little diffrent but was not a brown trouser moment or a moment to think I was in trouble with the outfit, just felt slightly uncomfortable.
This does not mean that I would do it again as I thinlk there is more to it then stability, there is also the need to stop etc MY17 D5 1st Edition Namib Orange
MY15 D4 HSE Kaikoura Stone
MY12 D4 HSE Nara Bronze Sold and gone
MY11 D4 HSE Stornaway Grey Sold and gone
D3 S spec Silver Sold and gone
Tow bar, full length roof bars, side steps, tow bar storage unit, surround camers.
D4 camera club
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| 8th May 2018 7:45 am |
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ChasD
Member Since: 16 Nov 2011
Location: Deepest Darkest Devon
Posts: 87
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“Personally, I think (and have mentioned within the caravan industry) that ATC (or equivalent) should be a mandatory fit on all caravans/trailers, as it’s a safety item. Whilst Al-Ko would never say so (and quite properly), in theory with ATC fitted it should be almost impossible to get into a severe ‘snake’ resulting in a loss of control. “
I completely agree!
I was recently looking at new Swift caravans and noted that several are not fitted with ATC ,which is sold as a factory fit option!
Surely safety should not be considered as optional. FFRR Autobiography 4.4 TDV8
Disco4 Graphite, Fuji white.
Disco Sport
(BMW X3)
Disco4 XS
Freelander 2 HSE
(Hyundai Santa Fe)
Disco TD5
Disco TDi
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| 8th May 2018 8:56 am |
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Russell
Member Since: 23 Aug 2007
Location: Kent
Posts: 10564
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Not sure where you have looked, but recently at the NEC caravan show all Swift caravans had ATC fitted as standard or within the list price.
There were other makes that did not have it fitted but they were few and far betweeen. MY17 D5 1st Edition Namib Orange
MY15 D4 HSE Kaikoura Stone
MY12 D4 HSE Nara Bronze Sold and gone
MY11 D4 HSE Stornaway Grey Sold and gone
D3 S spec Silver Sold and gone
Tow bar, full length roof bars, side steps, tow bar storage unit, surround camers.
D4 camera club
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| 8th May 2018 9:19 am |
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Browny90
Member Since: 19 Jul 2016
Location: Ashbourne
Posts: 698
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nigel207 wrote:Having been involved with tow car testing for the past eleven years, part of the test is towing on a dual-carriageway (test track at MIRA) at 60 mph. If the outfit feels stable at 60, it is suggested that we do the return at 70 mph. Most things there are stable at 60 mph (perfectly ballasted caravans for each individual car, with ideal noseweights, and perfectly flat roads with no other traffic), but it’s amazing how much instability creeps in between 60 and 70. There are some VERY popular tow cars that IMHO are downright dangerous at 70!
Even the D5 isn’t as stable as the D4 was (evidenced by live data from the caravan ATC system monitored by an engineer from Al-Ko), but the ONLY cars that I’ve taken above 70 (for the hell of it - but remember it’s on test tracks!) are the D4, D5, RR Sport (old and new), FFRR (old and new) and latterly the Velar.
There are some very good tow cars made by other manufacturers, but without being biased, the best is the D4!
I generally tow at 55-60 with my own, after all, we’re on holiday so what’s the rush?
Nigel, Do you know A. Marriot? Disco4 MY16 SDV6 Landmark Black
Disco4 MY12 SDV6 XS Orkney Grey (Gone)
Defender 90 200tdi Completely rebuilt.
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| 8th May 2018 10:48 am |
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ChasD
Member Since: 16 Nov 2011
Location: Deepest Darkest Devon
Posts: 87
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Russell wrote:Not sure where you have looked, but recently at the NEC caravan show all Swift caravans had ATC fitted as standard or within the list price.
There were other makes that did not have it fitted but they were few and far betweeen.
Highbridge Caravan Centre ltd, Somerset. The salesman also said, “ ATC isn’t really necessary, it depends on your vehicle.”
The caravan in question was a brand new Swift Challenger 560. ( the Conqueror had ATC)
It seems it’s a case of a salesman saying anything to sell!
Check of Swift website shows ATC as Factory fit option. FFRR Autobiography 4.4 TDV8
Disco4 Graphite, Fuji white.
Disco Sport
(BMW X3)
Disco4 XS
Freelander 2 HSE
(Hyundai Santa Fe)
Disco TD5
Disco TDi
Defender 110 TDi 200
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| 8th May 2018 1:35 pm |
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nigel207
Member Since: 26 Mar 2009
Location: Nottinghamshire
Posts: 1359
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James W wrote:What sensors does ATC operate on? Pitch, Yaw, Tilt, Wheel speed, etc?
Interesting stuff
Mainly ‘yaw’ as far as I know, and no, there’s no wheel speed monitoring.
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| 8th May 2018 4:05 pm |
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nigel207
Member Since: 26 Mar 2009
Location: Nottinghamshire
Posts: 1359
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Russell wrote:Not sure where you have looked, but recently at the NEC caravan show all Swift caravans had ATC fitted as standard or within the list price.
There were other makes that did not have it fitted but they were few and far betweeen.
Only standard on the Conqueror and Elegance, not the Challenger or Sprite. Optional on those. You’re not confusing ATC with the AKS3004 hitch stabiliser are you Russell?
Last edited by nigel207 on 8th May 2018 4:16 pm. Edited 1 time in total
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| 8th May 2018 4:06 pm |
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