Bad news is that this is when they are at most risk of an accident. The risk of crashing is exponential to the number of passengers carried.
I would say don't buy them a car, let them use the D3 if they need to use a vehicle otherwise take the train / bus. It is heartbreaking to read about the deaths of 17-24 year old males every single weekend. Common denominators are small car, mates in the car, after hours and excessive speed.
BCP
BCP comes from the same school as me.
In terms of bad days at work, I can't agree more. Worst shift, 7 x 17 year olds, 2 cars. 14 distraught parents. 1 accident, countless lives changed for ever.
You can't get him to be too careful - and be a hard Dad - set some hard rules."To finish first, one first has to finish ...."
4th Apr 2008 9:18 pm
CY
Member Since: 16 Aug 2005
Location: Warwickshire
Posts: 4506
Whilst it's a common sight you can't tarnish all 17 year olds with the same brush. It's a frequent occurance that groups of youngsters drive too quickly and all too often crash into an innocent party coming the other way, and the statistics show that the most dangerous group of drivers is the under 25s.
Yet, there is still a significant cut of young drivers with the rules of the road fresh in their mind, who do not speed and or drive wrecklessly and don't show off or try to impress their mates with their car. Of course being in your first year of driving means inexperience but judging by the way some "experienced" folk drive it's not all that bad..
As opposed to the sky high insurance price for young drivers, particuarly males, IMHO there should be as 90BHP says "hard rules". Youngsters, for example, shouldn't be allowed to drive at night, during their first year of driving (not just if they're 17). After driving for a year they will be experienced enough to be able to safely handle a car in low visibility conditions. I think a lot of these aforementioned big accidents happen at night too. Then again, those who are safe new drivers suffer as a result of the few who speed and cause accidents.
There's no winning
I, like my brother, will be driving the family's Renault Modus but do not take big groups of friends in it, don't drive it late at night or speed and show off (albeit it's hard to do in a Modus). I'm not going to modify it, I'm not going to do tricky or dangerous roads until I've 'learnt' them, I'm not going to go round corners too quickly to try and convince my mates I'm in a sports car. Admittadly I am new to the road but I'm still going to have to pay well over £1500 for the privilege of being able to drive to Uni and back, go to the shops and drive into town rather than take a bus. 2007 Porsche Boxster (987) 2.7
2008 Discovery 3 TDV6 HSE G4 Challenge (1 of 68)
2023 Defender 90 D250 X-Dynamic HSE
5th Apr 2008 3:25 pm
BCP
Member Since: 25 May 2005
Location: East Scotland
Posts: 1471
CY, what about spending the cash on a bike? Seriously, if you're in Edinburgh and from your photos I guess you're in the Colinton / Morningside area you'd be better off cycling everywhere. Far quicker in old reekie than a car and no parking costs.
5th Apr 2008 4:57 pm
CY
Member Since: 16 Aug 2005
Location: Warwickshire
Posts: 4506
I can definitely see the advantages of cycling but I've got two counter objections: 1) We've got a parking space on the edge of Princes Street (from when we sold a property many moons ago but kept the parking) so I'm not adding to parking congestion and not paying a penny 2) I've been a devout 'petrol head' for all these years in avid desperation to be able to drive - I pay the price and take my chances I've been accelerating the car cleaning mini-business in order to try and finance it... slowly but surely..2007 Porsche Boxster (987) 2.7
2008 Discovery 3 TDV6 HSE G4 Challenge (1 of 68)
2023 Defender 90 D250 X-Dynamic HSE
5th Apr 2008 6:32 pm
Claud
Member Since: 03 Mar 2007
Location: Surrey
Posts: 152
My 17 year old son is on a provisional licence, it cost £1750 with Diamond to insure him on a Peugeot 206 cabriolet with his mum as the main driver. Not bad considering it has a 1.6 engine.2016 D4 Landmark
2010 Freelander SD4 XS Auto
and a few older Land Rovers from the 1950's
I've lost count of the number of cases of fronting I've kicked out in recent years. Not recommended.I know it's not considered "kind" to say no these days, but no. Just no, ok? And if it's not ok, still no.
5th Apr 2008 9:32 pm
SN
Member Since: 03 Jan 2006
Location: Romiley
Posts: 13710
ND Steve N | 21MY Defender | 08MY Discovery 3 (history) | 06MY Discovery 3 (ancient history)
I'm nearly twenty and passed my test nearly two and a half years ago. I'm driving a Defender insured with NFU. It's costing £400 a year with me as a named driver fully comp and has been the same since I passed my test. We looked into the possibility of insuring me on the Disco and it's only £1000. Not bad really considering the price most people are paying for a wee 1.2 corsa. Maybe worth looking at getting a Defender, then you can use it for pay and play days too! Discovery 3 - TDV6 SE - Bonnati Grey
Defender 90 - 300 Tdi County - Epsom Green
9th Apr 2008 11:02 am
al cope
Member Since: 08 Nov 2005
Location: Oldbury, WM
Posts: 10352
Perhaps Dosh can answer this, but I dont get the fronting bit (I know what it means). It just seems like another excuse to fleece the motorist. With any insurance premium, its based on risk, so as soon as you put a young driver on a policy, they are the primary risk, and the preminum will be based on that risk, therefore, it shouldnt/doesnt matter who's name the policy is in.
AlVolvo XC90 B5 Plus Dark
Gone - MY18 D5 HSE - Corris on 22's with Black Pack
Now gone - MY16 D4 SE Tech, Loire Blue, Almond Leather, Privacy, plus some other goodies.
Old - MY12 D4 SDV6 XS Auto - Ipanema Sand with Almond Leather - Plus other niceties, and D4.com sticker
Older - D3 TDV6 XS Auto - Lugano Teal with Almond Leather, 20" Stormers, Shiny Tailpipes, DVD/TV - and obligatory D3 sticker
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Because IIRC one of the questions is, who will be the main driver ?
So being a named driver, infers you will not be using the car more than the person who takes out the policy owner.
Those were the days, my first car in the 80's was a 1.8 Opel Manta Berlinetta. Didn't cost too much as I was named on my Dad's insurance, but it was ok then "To finish first, one first has to finish ...."
Got it in one. The rating is based on the user risk profile. Main user is mum with son as named driver, so only mum will habitually commute in that car, will regularly use at night etc. Named drivers are meant to be ancilliary so the loading for putting little Johnny on the cover is less than if he's using it to drive to college every day.
If Little Johhny stacks the car where he's named driver and the insurers find a boyed-up stereo, chequerplate mats and a stick-on alloy fuel filler cap they are likely to argue (and win) that LJ was the main driver and "avoid" the policy or at the very least demand retrospective payment of the correct, higher premium for the actual higher risk.I know it's not considered "kind" to say no these days, but no. Just no, ok? And if it's not ok, still no.
9th Apr 2008 9:14 pm
al cope
Member Since: 08 Nov 2005
Location: Oldbury, WM
Posts: 10352
So, OK, you take out the policy, put LJ as a named driver, and state he's the main driver, whats the problem with that.
AlVolvo XC90 B5 Plus Dark
Gone - MY18 D5 HSE - Corris on 22's with Black Pack
Now gone - MY16 D4 SE Tech, Loire Blue, Almond Leather, Privacy, plus some other goodies.
Old - MY12 D4 SDV6 XS Auto - Ipanema Sand with Almond Leather - Plus other niceties, and D4.com sticker
Older - D3 TDV6 XS Auto - Lugano Teal with Almond Leather, 20" Stormers, Shiny Tailpipes, DVD/TV - and obligatory D3 sticker
Ancient - D3 TDV6 S - Tonga with Ebony, 20" Stormers, satnav & DVD
You can be the named driver and the main driver, but the rating is based on that main driver, NOT the person taking out the policy.
Example: Dad has a Disco3, buys a Corsa asw well and insures it in his name. Adds LJ as a named driver, but lists himself (dad) as main driver. LJ uses car to go to college etc, dad never or rarely drives Corsa. This is fronting as the premium will be calculated on the basis that LJ is only an infrequent user and that the majority of driving and therefore the risk that needs rating will be done by dad.
If you take the same scenario, Corsa insured on Dad's policy with LJ as main driver, it will be rated with LJ as the main driver and the price will reflect that. In such situations most insurers will not allow the NCD to be shared across the cars/drivers because experience has taught them that when LJ has his first prang, dad will scream blue murder when his hard-earned NCD goes out the window. It's just not commercially wise to go down this route.
Insurers are very aware of this sort of thing and they make it quite clear that the proposer's answers at proposal stage form a contract. If those responses are found to have been false, the contract can be avoided in law as it was entered by fraudulent means (misrepresenting the risk to the insurer). I've seen numerous instances of small hatchbacks being fronted and many companies now train their call centre staff to probe around the expected use of the vehicle whenever a young driver is added. There's also an awareness that people try and get around it by adding these cars some weeks before they intend adding LJ to the policy, so anyone adding a small car to their policy may find they have to answer a few more questions than usual. Questions on websites are clearer too, making it plain that you cannot insure / rate a main driver as anyone other than the person making most use of the vehicle.
Insurance contracts are contracts of absolute disclosure. The ideal policy makes it absolutely clear what is and isn't covered and in return it is incumbent on the insured to provide the insurer with salient facts. I say "ideal" policy as I'm acutely aware that some policies have wording that can be subject to interpretation by the bloody-minded, although these are being improved almost daily. Policy wording that has been perfectly adequate for many years has been picked apart by an ever more litigious public in recent years in an attempt to gain cover for events that were never included in the risk rating or premium, so each time you renew you MUST read your policy (as stated in the covering letter) as it is likely that wording will have evolved to make the bleeding obvious even more bleeding obvious.
Hope this helps. I also hope I don't come across as some evangelical cross-bearer for the industry as I'm more than aware of the shortcomings of some of the industry's leading lights. I'm also aware that the general public hates taking responsibility for their own shortcomings and will seek to blame the big, bad insurer when they fail to read the details of their policy.
I'm a freelance consultant/business analyst specialising in the regulated insurance industry, making my daily bread by seeking out and correcting failings in insurer's processes, so I get to see the good, the bad and the ugly from all sides of the coin for my sins I know it's not considered "kind" to say no these days, but no. Just no, ok? And if it's not ok, still no.
Member Since: 08 Nov 2005
Location: Oldbury, WM
Posts: 10352
Dosh
wasnt having a pop at you (or anyone), but it always feels like us mere mortals are being fleeced at every opportunity, and in the spirit of fairness, we need to be allowed to use whatever is (legally and above board) availible to us to get a decent deal.
If, by using SWMBO's NCD, we insure a motor for LJ to use, with him as the named and main driver, and this gets us a slightly better price, why should this be frowned upon. We've been up front about who is to drive, and the useage, so the insurer can calculate the risk.
AlVolvo XC90 B5 Plus Dark
Gone - MY18 D5 HSE - Corris on 22's with Black Pack
Now gone - MY16 D4 SE Tech, Loire Blue, Almond Leather, Privacy, plus some other goodies.
Old - MY12 D4 SDV6 XS Auto - Ipanema Sand with Almond Leather - Plus other niceties, and D4.com sticker
Older - D3 TDV6 XS Auto - Lugano Teal with Almond Leather, 20" Stormers, Shiny Tailpipes, DVD/TV - and obligatory D3 sticker
Ancient - D3 TDV6 S - Tonga with Ebony, 20" Stormers, satnav & DVD
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| 08MY Discovery 3 (history) 
and insures it in his name. Adds LJ as a named driver, but lists himself (dad) as main driver. LJ uses car to go to college etc, dad never or rarely drives Corsa. This is fronting as the premium will be calculated on the basis that LJ is only an infrequent user and that the majority of driving and therefore the risk that needs rating will be done by dad.
