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galwaygreen
Member Since: 30 Oct 2011
Location: plymouth
Posts: 6525
  
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what a mess this scenario is reported as...looks like they changed their minds when the . hit hit the fan today,,,who thought this one up
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 18th Aug 2022 12:04 am |
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RogB
Member Since: 15 Jun 2018
Location: Mansfield
Posts: 1729
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same as the rest of the recruitment criteria across the whole of the armed forces.
They have bent over backwards to appease the diversity and inclusion drive and have gone way too far as always so now need to backtrack.
Of course the armed forces should accept people of all groups into all roles regardless.... if they meet the entry requirements and can do the job as well as the next person then welcome them with open arms but they shouldnt have to lower the standards required or compromise on ability. 2011 D4 XS 305 MY12 - gone but not forgotten
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| 18th Aug 2022 7:06 am |
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RRSTDV8
Member Since: 07 Apr 2014
Location: Here
Posts: 13541
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Agreed. It's one thing to have policies that support all types of people in their aspirations to join / progress in the armed forces, quite another to have policies that try to bend the figures. If a black woman wants to join the RAF, for example, and meets the entry requirements then she should be allowed in. If an Asian man wants to join the Army but doesn't meet the requirements or flunks training then they have to leave. And the same applies to white people - if you're good enough then you can join.
I wonder at what level these policies were thought up and then signed off. Visiting from rrsport.co.uk
2012 RRS SDV6
2008 RRS TDV8
"When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die! You don't know who's children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they were always going to have to do from the very beginning: SIT DOWN AND TALK!"
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| 18th Aug 2022 7:24 am |
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RogB
Member Since: 15 Jun 2018
Location: Mansfield
Posts: 1729
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probably the level where the person/people in question have risen through the ranks from Sandhurst and are now more concerned about making a name for themselves in Whitehall or prior to publishing their life story than they are about the forces they supposedly manage.
The rare few that do care, tend not to rise too high up the ladder as their ''look after the troops'' ethos is not in keeping with modern agendas. 2011 D4 XS 305 MY12 - gone but not forgotten
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| 18th Aug 2022 11:08 am |
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RRSTDV8
Member Since: 07 Apr 2014
Location: Here
Posts: 13541
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Or it's come from the minister in charge of that bit of the MoD portfolio. Visiting from rrsport.co.uk
2012 RRS SDV6
2008 RRS TDV8
"When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die! You don't know who's children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they were always going to have to do from the very beginning: SIT DOWN AND TALK!"
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| 18th Aug 2022 11:55 am |
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DG
Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50978
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Blah blah blah
Of course, if matey boy and his chap with 25 years of D&I experience took the time to look, they would see that D&I and values go hand in hand in RAF long term policies.
https://recruitment.raf.mod.uk/diversity-and-inclusion
https://recruitment.raf.mod.uk/recruitment...inal-u.pdf
https://recruitment.raf.mod.uk/recruitment...preads.pdf
A diverse workforce is a rich workforce. D&I is not intended to dilute standards, far from it, it is there to encourage opportunity to those that might not see themselves otherwise as traditional applicants.
I wrote to an applicant this morning who was from an under-represented group. He was aggrieved that he was not shortlisted for interview and alleged discrimination in our recruitment process when, in fact, he just did not meet the criteria for the role in his application. So IME it certainly isn't about lowering standards to make the numbers up as some put it. 21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
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| 18th Aug 2022 12:56 pm |
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HWN
Member Since: 23 Feb 2018
Location: Near Llanybydder (near Puff!)
Posts: 4579
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The allegation is that the top brass of the RAF (white and middle-class as is typical for such enterprises) is wanting to go against those extant policies.
I'm told (by someone at a large City accountancy firm) there is good money to be made by submitting two identical CVs for jobs at large companies, one with an Anglo Saxon name, one with a name having "BAME" characteristics. If the "Anglo Saxon" candidate gets an interview and the other doesn't, crying 'racist!' usually results in an ex gratia payment to make it go away.
There are lots of Somalis in the UK. The average IQ in Somalia is 68 (just above the threshold of 66 for working at McDonalds). Are there ever going to be any Somali front-line pilots? The odds are against it, but should there be a representative proportion of Somalis? Not if they don't meet the criteria; not if doing so displaces a candidate who does.
Whether some of these under-represented groups actually give a flying-  about this country, let alone care about it to the point that they want to actually defend it is another question. The Army, Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force all helped to build/defend The Empire (no, not the Cinema) and, under the current thinking, should be disbanded entirely. 2015 Volvo V40
2014 D4 HSE
2006 RRS - C'est mort. Fin... ...It's alive! Oh no, it's not - scrapped.
2019 Suzuki Kingquad 400
2017 RamRod Taskmaster 1150
1977 John Deere 2130
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| 18th Aug 2022 1:25 pm |
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RRSTDV8
Member Since: 07 Apr 2014
Location: Here
Posts: 13541
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If it is done as a policy of "employ the best people irrespective of background" then it's all good. But there are suggestions that there are policies of trying to achieve certain numbers of various groups e.g. women, BAME, etc. That is not a good policy if it means good people are not employed because they don't meet the required target groups.
It's discrimination whether it's not employing someone because they're not white or employing them only because they're not white.
Quote:A senior female RAF recruitment officer has resigned amid claims of pressure to meet diversity targets.
The unnamed Group Captain is reported to have voiced frustration that white men were rejected in an bid to recruit more ethnic minorities and women.
The Royal Air Force aims to hit targets of 20% for minority ethnicity and 40% for women among new recruits by 2030.
The force insisted recruitment had not been paused and it was working to recruit more under-represented people.
Britain's armed forces have made no secret they want to attract more women, Black and Asian recruits.
The head of Britain's armed forces, Chief of the Defence Staff Admiral Sir Tony Radakin, has described their under-representation as woeful.
But the RAF has gone the furthest, setting ambitious targets to more than double its recruitment of women to hit 40% by 2030, as well as to ensure ethnic minorities make up 20% of new recruits.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62582156
The armed forces are, thankfully, made up of people that volunteered to be there. What happens if all of your volunteers are white men? Trying to force a certain profile of employees is going to be very difficult if not enough of the under represented people volunteer in the first place.
Edit: the person resigning in protest must either really care or is trying for a pay out. Group Captains are on £95k-£105k (https://www.raf-ff.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/Pay-rates-and-charges.pdf). That's a decent salary to step away from on a whim. Visiting from rrsport.co.uk
2012 RRS SDV6
2008 RRS TDV8
"When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die! You don't know who's children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they were always going to have to do from the very beginning: SIT DOWN AND TALK!"
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| 18th Aug 2022 1:31 pm |
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RogB
Member Since: 15 Jun 2018
Location: Mansfield
Posts: 1729
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DG wrote:Blah blah blah
Of course, if matey boy and his chap with 25 years of D&I experience took the time to look, they would see that D&I and values go hand in hand in RAF long term policies.
https://recruitment.raf.mod.uk/diversity-and-inclusion
https://recruitment.raf.mod.uk/recruitment...inal-u.pdf
https://recruitment.raf.mod.uk/recruitment...preads.pdf
A diverse workforce is a rich workforce. D&I is not intended to dilute standards, far from it, it is there to encourage opportunity to those that might not see themselves otherwise as traditional applicants.
I wrote to an applicant this morning who was from an under-represented group. He was aggrieved that he was not shortlisted for interview and alleged discrimination in our recruitment process when, in fact, he just did not meet the criteria for the role in his application. So IME it certainly isn't about lowering standards to make the numbers up as some put it.
I get what your saying about lowering standards, let me present a little of my background.
i joined the Royal Signals at 16.5 yrs old in January 1985, the intake prior to mine had suffered pretty nasty peer to peer bullying, however by the time I arrived it had been clamped down to almost non existance. We were pushed very very hard, we were shouted at, verbally abused and physically pushed to and sometimes beyond our perceived limits. Was it bullying... no. It was breaking us down to be moulded into team players, capable of doing almost any job thrown at us and under almost any circumstances.
Fast forward to my last posting in 2000, as a phase 2 training instructor assessing trainee soldiers of all backgrounds and ethnicity for field units.
by this time drug use was very common, extreme lack of respect for authority or for the uniform was rife, recruits had been told they could black list us if we did anything they didnt like and much more that hadnt previously ever been allowed or tolerated. None of it was good,
I myself was hauled over the coals because i had failed a female coloured trainee on her 3rd attempt to pass the course, she just wasnt up to scratch for the job. And yet the system allowed her to challenge my failure of her (which had been overseen and supported by senior soldiers above me) with her citing that i failed her because she was a)black b)female and c)pregnant....and yet i had passed other many coloured students through the course, and many female students and obviously i had no idea she was pregnant.
She was then allowed to pass the course, despite being below standard on 3 occasions with 3 separate instructors (1 female).
So do i believe that standards have been dropped over the years since in favour of D&I ...... most definitely !
Im not having a go or anything like that, but just pointing out that i have first hand experience of the lowering of standards within the armed forces in favour of higher agendas. 2011 D4 XS 305 MY12 - gone but not forgotten
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| 18th Aug 2022 1:56 pm |
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RRSTDV8
Member Since: 07 Apr 2014
Location: Here
Posts: 13541
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Be interesting to see that policy stand up to legal challenge, Hugh. Someone is going to get a big discrimination payout and then they'll drop the policy. It would appear to be contrary to the Equalities Act and also would likely be frowned upon under the ECHR. Visiting from rrsport.co.uk
2012 RRS SDV6
2008 RRS TDV8
"When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die! You don't know who's children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they were always going to have to do from the very beginning: SIT DOWN AND TALK!"
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| 18th Aug 2022 3:02 pm |
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DG
Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50978
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RogB wrote: she just wasnt up to scratch for the job. And yet the system allowed her to challenge my failure of her
I understand. The system should obviously be robust in application; where not, that is a failure.
HWN wrote: I'm told (by someone at a large City accountancy firm) there is good money to be made by submitting two identical CVs for jobs at large companies, one with an Anglo Saxon name, one with a name having "BAME" characteristics. If the "Anglo Saxon" candidate gets an interview and the other doesn't, crying 'racist!' usually results in an ex gratia payment to make it go away.
Similarly, if the recruitment process were robust, then names and equalities info should be removed for those sifting and shortlisting to prevent the potential for such bias. The judgement then is solely based upon meeting the criteria for the role. 21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
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| 18th Aug 2022 6:11 pm |
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