My D3 has everything; winch,rai ,expo roof rack, swing off spare wheel carrier,under belly protection, sliding load space floor and appox 3/4 ton of special tools on board, and on a good day weighs in at around 3.5 tons, the brake sometimes gets sticky especially when I've been thro' water and left it parked for a couple of days or after I've done some off roading. Dealer tells me I should have the parking brake serviced after every 50 hours of off road driving. I have told them B..loks! go and sort out the problem. I bought what was supposed to be the finest off road vehicle in the world. I am beginning to think I should stick to a Fiat Panda and supermarket car parks instead of the brown stuff. They now service the handbrake when ever it needs it, so stick to your guns
26th Apr 2009 11:55 pm
Alex08
Member Since: 09 Nov 2006
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 1600
As a temporary solution - leave more space in front of the vehicle, release the break by driving forward then use the footbrake, change to reverse and head down the hill. Had to do this before I realised how to release the EPB manually!
Reversing down a steep hill under enough throttle to release the EPB is not fun......
27th Apr 2009 8:13 am
GaryEss
Member Since: 27 Apr 2009
Location: midlands
Posts: 42
Gareth's point is a good one- if you use the switch manually does the EPB immediately release?
If it doesn't then this points toward sticking EPB shoes/mechanism. These will need to have a strip, clean and adjust procedure- a good dealer should easily be well practised at carrying this out.
However if the EPB releases properly every time when the switch is used manually, then it appears that your problem is only occuring during DAR- "drive away release". This is the automatic release function that will release the EPB based on APP input. However if the vehicle is parked on a hill then the throttle needed to acheive smooth DAR will differ, as if the EPB releases before sufficient engine torque is being produced the vehicle can roll back.
To allow the EPB to release at the correct moment when on a hill, the unit (EPB) incorporates a longitudinal accelerometer. This "tells" it if the vehicle is pointing up or downhill and to what degree. A large throttle input would be expected for EPB release if the angle of your driveway is very large,
HOWEVER the longitudinal accelerometer needs first to be calibrated on a flat surface using IDS. This gives a level reference point from which it can then calculate all subsequent longitudinal acceleration.
The bottom line is if your vehicle "thinks" it is on a steep upward or downward slope when it isn't then APP input will be excessive for smooth DAR. Does the EPB fail to release if you park facing either way? (nose up & downhill)
Incidently, a loose EPB, that has lost it's 2 10mm mounting nuts (or had them left off) causing the unit to become tilted forward can cause the exact symptoms you describe as the accelerometer shows that the vehicle's longitudinal axis is not level when in fact it is.
If the problem is not mechanical (strip clean, etc) ask your dealer to check L.A calibration The sensors real time activity can also be viewed using datalogger and compared to a similar vehicle.
I must add that the above scenario is much less likely than a case of the shoes simply sticking so please see this as a last resort.
Hope this may help.
27th Apr 2009 8:40 am
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Nice one Gary Ess, Judging by the detail of your response and your location, are you somethign of an inside connection to LR by any chance....... Bodsys Brake Bible
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27th Apr 2009 9:24 am
Andrew Hebron
Member Since: 16 Jan 2009
Location: Teddington
Posts: 501
Does it work OK on the flat?Andrew
27th Apr 2009 11:13 am
DSL Keeper of the wheelie bin
Member Since: 11 May 2006
Location: Off again! :-)
Posts: 72885
Welcome GaryEss, it's good to have more techy input on the dreaded EPB! You're not the designer?? It's not him/her we curse, it's whoever decided to put it in the D3!
27th Apr 2009 11:20 am
GaryEss
Member Since: 27 Apr 2009
Location: midlands
Posts: 42
Thanks for the thumbs up.
With the levels of complexity that are designed into all Eu and North American compliant vehicles increasing all of the time it can be hard to find the right information to fully diagnoise any issues.
Some of this information is not necessarily included in system operating manuals etc or it is in the manual for another system, so anyone tasked with affecting any repairs may not be able to fully understand how the system operates or interacts with others on the vehicle.
I only joined Disco3 Uk when I read this post because not too many people I have met realise that the EPB contains this extra sensor.
If it means one more person doesn't buy a Fiat 500 then........ (only joking itsalandiething, hope you get you EPB sorted)
27th Apr 2009 11:22 am
Gareth Site Moderator
Member Since: 07 Dec 2004
Location: Bramhall
Posts: 26741
Welcome Gary. Does the EPB unit automatically apply more torque to the brake when the car is parked on a slope?
This might explain why some 'screamers' are only encountered when applying the epb on a hill.
I always presumed it was because the shoes were moving against the backplate, neccesitating more movement on the cables to achieve the required torque. But if the epb unit is thinking "Ah! I'm on a hill, so I'll pull harder" it could explain the phenomenon.
Does the EPB unit automatically apply more torque to the brake when the car is parked on a slope?
Interesting question - because my EPB problem only happened when I applied it on a slope. It was fine on the flat.
Of course - I was on a slope at traffic lights when it siezed on The next American ex-pat that calls it a "truck" is going to find out what 2.7 tons feels like on their foot...
Club "yes, I too have had the EGR's replaced..."
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Club "yes, I too once had the car at the dealer for a couple of weeksnearly 4 weeksover 4 weeks...5 weeks"
Club "yes, I too have had EPB failure..."
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27th Apr 2009 11:44 am
GaryEss
Member Since: 27 Apr 2009
Location: midlands
Posts: 42
Hello Gareth
The EPB also has a force sensor to measure the force applied to the cables. It can remain active up to (i think 20 minutes) after key off so it will re tension the cables as the shoes cool down (thus contracting and releasing apply force) if necessary.
This active period is why you should inhbit the EPB or remove power supply when working on the park brake shoes- if it attempts a retension procedure when the cables are disconnected the EPB can be damaged.
I am not aware if the applied force is any greater when parked up or downhill, but I am not an expert on the system. The possible re tensioning that could take place after the initial application could cause the shoes to move to a slightly different postion.
27th Apr 2009 11:56 am
itsalandiething
Member Since: 22 Apr 2009
Location: North Staffordshire
Posts: 93
Gosh Gary that sounds very much like you are in the know ... unortunately I think I need to read your posting a few more times before I get it (my technical grasp isnt brilliant !) however the problem has never occured onthe flat ... is the other thingy ma bob bit you talk about the delay you get when you are doing a hill start like at traffic lights ? Perhaps we should have a slope day, instead of a green laning trip we could all sit on a slope and see who falls off first ...... Jo xGenghis G4 HSE
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27th Apr 2009 1:47 pm
GaryEss
Member Since: 27 Apr 2009
Location: midlands
Posts: 42
If you are pulling away on a hill start you might notice that you need a little more accelerator pedal movement before the EPB auto releases (DAR) compared to the flat. This is normal, so normal in fact that you shouldn't really notice. Excessive throttle should not be needed to effect DAR unless the EPB "thinks" that you are on a hill when you actually are not or if the shoes are sticking (most likely). Both of these are scenarios are not normal operation.
If anyone wants to they can test the DAR/ longitudinal accelerometer by first stopping on a level surface and manually applying the EPB. Select Drive then gently push the acc. pedal and note where it is when the EPB releases.
Now park on a steep upward slope.Manually apply the EPB. select Drive. Now gently apply the acc pedal- you should notice that you need to have a lot more pedal before the EPB releases, but the vehicle still does not jerk forward. The EPB calculates release based on the torque output needed to just prevent roll back. It needs to "know" how steep the slope is or the release will be early (result=roll back) or late (result = excess engine torque output for conditions so vehicle jumps forward when EPB releases) The system is "clever" enough to change the pedal input/ EPB release relationship wether you are driving away uphill in Drive or downhill in Reverse,
Has your dealer cleaned and adjusted your EPB shoes? Make sure he doesn't forget to check for sticking cables.
If all the mechanical side of the system checks out ok then ask them to carry out L.A calibration. FYI if this sensor does have a fault it cannot be replaced- fix is new EPB module.
I will say that the sensors are VERY reliable- I have seen very few failures so this is probably the remotest possibility regards your fault. It's always good to have the information though.
27th Apr 2009 2:58 pm
DG Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50965
Gary ...welcome
Where have you been all of our lives ?? You would really think that general EPB issues would be sorted 5 years after roll out eh ?
Thanks for sharing the info though ...very interesting 21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
27th Apr 2009 3:07 pm
GaryEss
Member Since: 27 Apr 2009
Location: midlands
Posts: 42
Gareth, your question about brake apply force varying on a slope has got me thinking.
I have done some testing with a car on a slope and came up with the following
The EPB when applied in P or N is always at full force, regardless of slope angle- this makes sense as there is no harm in applying "extra" force on the level ground.
HOWEVER- when we put the transmission in gear the EPB apply force reduces a little (a bit like letting a normal handbrake off a little as the clutch "bites") It is "preparing" to release.The amount of reduction in apply force will vary depending if the vehicle is on a hill or on the flat. On a hill the reduction is less i.e. we are closer to the full apply figure even though we are in gear.
So if you have a slightly sticking set of shoes then they are more likely to manifest themselves when carrying out a hill start as the EPB is still slightly applied until the torque figure needed for DAR is reached.
This appears to explain why sticking shoes can seem worse from hill starts.
thank you for the question, I've filled in some of my knowledge gaps.
27th Apr 2009 3:31 pm
TallPaul
Member Since: 03 Jan 2008
Location: Near Reading
Posts: 1214
itsalandiething - I think your EPB just needs cleaning and "dealer'ing". We had the same thing late last year, more noticeable in manual as you use it more instead of riding the foot brake like you tend to in an auto.
I noticed that when our shoes were sticking you needed a lot of revs if you wanted to pull away on a slope, there is one place on the usual route to the office with a fair slope and one week they put up some roadworks which is when I noticed this, few weeks later handbrake got stuck on etc.
After the EPB was done its a lot smoother on a hill, I definitely think you have an issue - suspect the dealer is spinning you a yarn but this could be something like land rover will not pay out if you just bought the car as they were supposed to do the used land rover inspection maybe?
If the dealer has any hills, or one of those little up down bump tracks outside go park on it and then go in to see them and ask for an opinion - suggest perhaps the service manager would like to park his car directly behind the D3 before he tried to pullaway and then see what they say
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I have told them B..loks! 
go and sort out the problem. I bought what was supposed to be the finest off road vehicle in the world. I am beginning to think I should stick to a Fiat Panda and supermarket car parks instead of the brown stuff. They now service the handbrake when ever it needs it, so stick to your guns 
You would really think that general EPB issues would be sorted 5 years after roll out eh ?
