Member Since: 04 Feb 2017
Location: Falkirk
Posts: 348
jenseneverest wrote:
Great to see your able to get back to this
Very nice that the ford bearing do actually fit.
Im not sure i understand your thinking on the larger clearance tolerance as an attempt to cool shells by Ford. IMO the only cooling done by oil is onto the piston /bores with the oil sprayers.
Oil is essentially used to stop friction, this is best done with tight tolerances, the hotter and thinner the oil gets, the less effective it becomes...... i would be aiming for the smallest allowed tolerance.
I would not mix and match the blue/yellow shells either, by mixing them your effectively making the housing oval, all be it by a ball hair.
Just my 2 cents.... another great, well detailed write up as always
Jensen,
To address your final point - mixing and matching shell colours - The LR manual tells you you can mix the shell colour - see page 5 of relevant section from the D3 2.7 TDV6 manual below:
However this section of the manual is a bit suspect.... For example:
Engine shown at the top of page 2 is not a TDV6
Block numbering for main brg codes is not in the location shown
It refers to vehicles built from 2002.......
Block main bearing bores sizes quoted don't match a TDV6.
I'm treating it more of a 'generally tackle it like this based on the info we cut'n pasted from an other unrelated engine' guide.
So I got busy with a micrometer and measured up the old bearings at 8 points on each using a 0.001mm graduated micrometer with a 5mm ball attachment on one anvil. Micrometer and bearing shells were left to acclimatize to 20C room temp before measuring. The results for my old main bearings was:
You can see from the attached data that the shells taper down towards the split line. Therefore I should not get a step that effects the crank. NOTE - I did not subtract the size of the ball attachment - the shells are 5.000 mm thinner than listed in the PDF.
So I currently 'think' I am comfortable with mixing between shell colour grades, provided that I only go one size up or down.
AdrianSeries one 1949 - in bits, chassis is strapped to the ceiling in my garage (beside the canoe)
LR 90 - In bits
Disco 3 - currently in bits
10th Nov 2021 12:03 am
Breg90
Member Since: 04 Feb 2017
Location: Falkirk
Posts: 348
So, Oil pumps.... I went in circles on this.
Initially stripped engine and the front of the oil pump looked deceptively shiney - conclusion - previous owner had updated the oil pump when the belts were done. Happy days.
In reality the middle was only shiny as the belt cover had kept it clean. Later I noticed that the date stamp on the casting was 2007... Not new then!
I stripped it and measured up the georotor element:
Then decided to try and find an OEM option to get more oil flow. Initially looked at the TDV8 as it has 2 more cylinders, so should in theory have 33% higher capacity pump. So I bought an ebay scrap special TDV8 pump for £20 and compared with the TDV6:
Both pump have the same number of lobes and the same georotor outer dimeter
The TDV6 georotor was 13.5 mm thick, the TDV8 was 17.5 thick mm, i.e. 29% thicker, giving an increase in capacity of 29% over the orignal 2.7 TDV6 pump.
However you can't fit a TDV8 oil pump to a TDV6 as it does not have the locating point for the timing belt idler. I did contemplate machining out the TDV6 pump to take the TDV8 oil pump georotor.
At this point I was ordering my sample bearings, so noticed that a Ford F-150 3.0 TDV6 oil pump is only $141. That worked out at £100 at the time. So I ordered one to see what I would get.... Up turns a box covered in Ford branding and inside a nice TDV6 Gen 2 oil pump with Land rover/jaguar cast into it!
So I stripped that down like so:
Turns out it also has a gerotor that is exactly the same OD & no of lobes as the early TDV6 and TDV8 pumps. BUT the rotor is 15mm thick, giving a nice 11% upgrade over my old pump.
This makes sense as the pump will have been upgraded at the same time as the bearings were modified and the clearances increased.
So can you fit a Gen 2 TDV6 3.0 oil pump to a 2.7 TDV6 - Nope! Couple of reasons:
1/. TDV6 pump relief valve is actuated by the pressure in the pump - the Gen 2 pump relief valve is actuated by pressure from the main oil gallery, i.e. after the oil filter and cooler. The 2.7 TDV6 does not have this port to activate the Gen 2 oil pump relief valve.
2/. The Gen 2 3.0 TDV6 has a secondary oil pump bypass that is electronically operated to dump oil pressure when the engine is under low load - reduces engine load, therefore reducing emissions. The TDV6 ECU can't operate this. However having looked further into the pump & oil system I'm not sure this is a loss! I'd probably disconnect this if I had a 3.0 TDV6.
Then after all that effort in a random Disco 3 forum post Yargo (thanks a lot!!!!) pointed out that the newest version of the TDV6 oil pump also has the 15 mm thick georotor element. More cash later and Advanced Factors had sent me one, it was also stripped and the georotor measured and conformed to be 15mm thick.
So after all that all I needed was a new pump for a 2.7..............Arrrrrghhhhh.
But the key learning for me was that it is worth while putting a new oil pump on the later 2.7's because the change will get you an 11% increase in pump capacity over the original.
I'm now tripping over bloody oil pumps at every turn.
AdrianSeries one 1949 - in bits, chassis is strapped to the ceiling in my garage (beside the canoe)
LR 90 - In bits
Disco 3 - currently in bits
10th Nov 2021 12:52 am
jenseneverest
Member Since: 12 Jun 2017
Location: somewhere
Posts: 769
Thanks Adrian,
Yet another great write up and very informed thinking on the oil pump! I was worried how you would ever figure out what volume and pressure you would end up with and still be safe doing, blowing oil seals would defeat the whole oil pump upgrade theory..... looks like the hard work has been done by landie / Jag in the uprated pump department. I would imagine that 11% increase would make a massive difference when really required
What i like most about your posts is it gets me thinking, all be it from a past life 20 odd years ago.....
I honestly never even thought of oil cooling shells in this way.....
I came across this article on my travels and it has both sides of the tight / loose tolerance argument, all be it from an American perspective (at least the size's are in good old thou )
Perhaps we are blowing the whole thing out of all proportions, after all this was a running engine, you just had a rusty floor !!
10th Nov 2021 2:37 am
aja4x4
Member Since: 14 Apr 2019
Location: Westbury
Posts: 2459
Extra oil flow is always a good thing, you wont blow the seals as the pump has a pressure relief valve to prevent this.Andrew
D3 2.7tdv6 2005
D4 3.0 SDV6 Commercial died and gone to LR heaven
D5 3.0 SDV6 HSE
10th Nov 2021 6:36 am
De_man
Member Since: 16 Nov 2021
Location: Leeds
Posts: 2
Breg90 wrote:
So, Oil pumps.... I went in circles on this.
Initially stripped engine and the front of the oil pump looked deceptively shiney - conclusion - previous owner had updated the oil pump when the belts were done. Happy days.
In reality the middle was only shiny as the belt cover had kept it clean. Later I noticed that the date stamp on the casting was 2007... Not new then!
I stripped it and measured up the georotor element:
Then decided to try and find an OEM option to get more oil flow. Initially looked at the TDV8 as it has 2 more cylinders, so should in theory have 33% higher capacity pump. So I bought an ebay scrap special TDV8 pump for £20 and compared with the TDV6:
Both pump have the same number of lobes and the same georotor outer dimeter
The TDV6 georotor was 13.5 mm thick, the TDV8 was 17.5 thick mm, i.e. 29% thicker, giving an increase in capacity of 29% over the orignal 2.7 TDV6 pump.
However you can't fit a TDV8 oil pump to a TDV6 as it does not have the locating point for the timing belt idler. I did contemplate machining out the TDV6 pump to take the TDV8 oil pump georotor.
At this point I was ordering my sample bearings, so noticed that a Ford F-150 3.0 TDV6 oil pump is only $141. That worked out at £100 at the time. So I ordered one to see what I would get.... Up turns a box covered in Ford branding and inside a nice TDV6 Gen 2 oil pump with Land rover/jaguar cast into it!
So I stripped that down like so:
Turns out it also has a gerotor that is exactly the same OD & no of lobes as the early TDV6 and TDV8 pumps. BUT the rotor is 15mm thick, giving a nice 11% upgrade over my old pump.
This makes sense as the pump will have been upgraded at the same time as the bearings were modified and the clearances increased.
So can you fit a Gen 2 TDV6 3.0 oil pump to a 2.7 TDV6 - Nope! Couple of reasons:
1/. TDV6 pump relief valve is actuated by the pressure in the pump - the Gen 2 pump relief valve is actuated by pressure from the main oil gallery, i.e. after the oil filter and cooler. The 2.7 TDV6 does not have this port to activate the Gen 2 oil pump relief valve.
2/. The Gen 2 3.0 TDV6 has a secondary oil pump bypass that is electronically operated to dump oil pressure when the engine is under low load - reduces engine load, therefore reducing emissions. The TDV6 ECU can't operate this. However having looked further into the pump & oil system I'm not sure this is a loss! I'd probably disconnect this if I had a 3.0 TDV6.
Then after all that effort in a random Disco 3 forum post Yargo (thanks a lot!!!!) pointed out that the newest version of the TDV6 oil pump also has the 15 mm thick georotor element. More cash later and Advanced Factors had sent me one, it was also stripped and the georotor measured and conformed to be 15mm thick.
So after all that all I needed was a new pump for a 2.7..............Arrrrrghhhhh.
But the key learning for me was that it is worth while putting a new oil pump on the later 2.7's because the change will get you an 11% increase in pump capacity over the original.
I'm now tripping over bloody oil pumps at every turn.
Adrian
Thank you Adrian!
16th Nov 2021 2:55 pm
De_man
Member Since: 16 Nov 2021
Location: Leeds
Posts: 2
Breg90 wrote:
jenseneverest wrote:
Great to see your able to get back to this
Very nice that the ford bearing do actually fit.
Im not sure i understand your thinking on the larger clearance tolerance as an attempt to cool shells by Ford. IMO the only cooling done by oil is onto the piston /bores with the oil sprayers.
Oil is essentially used to stop friction, this is best done with tight tolerances, the hotter and thinner the oil gets, the less effective it becomes...... i would be aiming for the smallest allowed tolerance.
I would not mix and match the blue/yellow shells either, by mixing them your effectively making the housing oval, all be it by a ball hair.
Just my 2 cents.... another great, well detailed write up as always
Jensen,
To address your final point - mixing and matching shell colours - The LR manual tells you you can mix the shell colour - see page 5 of relevant section from the D3 2.7 TDV6 manual below:
However this section of the manual is a bit suspect.... For example:
Engine shown at the top of page 2 is not a TDV6
Block numbering for main brg codes is not in the location shown
It refers to vehicles built from 2002.......
Block main bearing bores sizes quoted don't match a TDV6.
I'm treating it more of a 'generally tackle it like this based on the info we cut'n pasted from an other unrelated engine' guide.
So I got busy with a micrometer and measured up the old bearings at 8 points on each using a 0.001mm graduated micrometer with a 5mm ball attachment on one anvil. Micrometer and bearing shells were left to acclimatize to 20C room temp before measuring. The results for my old main bearings was:
You can see from the attached data that the shells taper down towards the split line. Therefore I should not get a step that effects the crank. NOTE - I did not subtract the size of the ball attachment - the shells are 5.000 mm thinner than listed in the PDF.
So I currently 'think' I am comfortable with mixing between shell colour grades, provided that I only go one size up or down.
Adrian
Hello Adrian! How are you? How is your car after repair?
16th Nov 2021 2:59 pm
Breg90
Member Since: 04 Feb 2017
Location: Falkirk
Posts: 348
De-Man,
I'm still mid repair!!
AdrianSeries one 1949 - in bits, chassis is strapped to the ceiling in my garage (beside the canoe)
LR 90 - In bits
Disco 3 - currently in bits
16th Nov 2021 4:54 pm
ttaarrmmoo
Member Since: 04 Mar 2018
Location: Tallinn
Posts: 3
Hi! Any more info/progress? Realy intresting thread!
I'm in the middle of crossroads here, i rebuilt my engine just so it can blowup on me 3300km later and now thinking on the idea of m57 swap or rebuild it again with better bearings and a new crankshaft.
5th Dec 2021 11:28 am
Breg90
Member Since: 04 Feb 2017
Location: Falkirk
Posts: 348
Ttaarrmmoo,
My progress is slow due to some health issues. But suggest you watch 'LR time' on U tube. They have a video series on a home rebuild of a 2.7 TDV6. Slightly different emphasis - how to line bore the engine main bearings in a home workshop.
However my view point is that the engine is rebuildable, but is not straight forward and requires time and patience.
You don't say if you have a 2.7 or a 3.0. If I had a 3.0 with a failed crank, I would risk buying a Ford F150 King Lariat crank from TASCA parts. I 'think' its the same crank as the European 3.0. However that is an opinion, please don't blame me if it is not!
Hope that helps,
AdrianSeries one 1949 - in bits, chassis is strapped to the ceiling in my garage (beside the canoe)
LR 90 - In bits
Disco 3 - currently in bits
9th Dec 2021 1:02 am
aja4x4
Member Since: 14 Apr 2019
Location: Westbury
Posts: 2459
These engines are so difficult to rebuild its beyond most rebuilders, you have to be so fussy on tolerences and torque settings. The lengths LR time go to when rebuilding theres are exactly whats needed and i hope that the engjne is good when completed.Andrew
D3 2.7tdv6 2005
D4 3.0 SDV6 Commercial died and gone to LR heaven
D5 3.0 SDV6 HSE
9th Dec 2021 7:24 am
ttaarrmmoo
Member Since: 04 Mar 2018
Location: Tallinn
Posts: 3
Breg90 wrote:
Ttaarrmmoo,
My progress is slow due to some health issues. But suggest you watch 'LR time' on U tube. They have a video series on a home rebuild of a 2.7 TDV6. Slightly different emphasis - how to line bore the engine main bearings in a home workshop.
However my view point is that the engine is rebuildable, but is not straight forward and requires time and patience.
You don't say if you have a 2.7 or a 3.0. If I had a 3.0 with a failed crank, I would risk buying a Ford F150 King Lariat crank from TASCA parts. I 'think' its the same crank as the European 3.0. However that is an opinion, please don't blame me if it is not!
Hope that helps,
Adrian
Hope you get well soon! LR Time is one of my goto channels on youtube on sundays been watching them before they started the rebuild, great people! I have 2.7 and the if iam going to stick do it (if i can find a crank) then i would like to order f150 bearings and go that route.
9th Dec 2021 4:04 pm
ttaarrmmoo
Member Since: 04 Mar 2018
Location: Tallinn
Posts: 3
aja4x4 wrote:
These engines are so difficult to rebuild its beyond most rebuilders, you have to be so fussy on tolerences and torque settings. The lengths LR time go to when rebuilding theres are exactly whats needed and i hope that the engjne is good when completed.
Yes, looking how Breg90 and LRTime do their stuff its safe to say that i did cut some corners but life goes on and i love this car so i will be drivin it again.
9th Dec 2021 4:22 pm
J.Prezes
Member Since: 10 May 2015
Location: usually at my Indy's shop
Posts: 62
So from like 20,5k pages of the Ford F-150 workshop manual, those two screenshots say everything. I will extract the pages about 3.0 diesel and put them into my files/gallery and probably will make a separate thread so this info won't be lost.
Oh and I guess the quality will be poor here
1st Feb 2022 12:48 pm
Breg90
Member Since: 04 Feb 2017
Location: Falkirk
Posts: 348
J. Prezes,
Interesting!! I would be VERY interested in the Ford F-150 engine manual.
Managed to get some detailed 2.7 TDV6 bearing shell data the other day. There are differences on how the clearances are adjusted between the 2.7 and 3.0 (Gen 2 engine) for both the Big end and Main bearings:
2.7:
Con rods - Lower shell comes in one grade (Grade1), upper shells in 3 grades (from thinnest to thickest shell - 1 - red, 2 - yellow & 3 - Blue).
Mains - upper shell comes in one grade, lower shells in 3 grades
3.0:
As per your post 3 grades of shell for both top and bottom on both big ends and mains.
Needs more thought...
AdrianSeries one 1949 - in bits, chassis is strapped to the ceiling in my garage (beside the canoe)
LR 90 - In bits
Disco 3 - currently in bits
1st Feb 2022 9:50 pm
Breg90
Member Since: 04 Feb 2017
Location: Falkirk
Posts: 348
J.Prezes wrote:
So from like 20,5k pages of the Ford F-150 workshop manual, those two screenshots say everything. I will extract the pages about 3.0 diesel and put them into my files/gallery and probably will make a separate thread so this info won't be lost.
Oh and I guess the quality will be poor here
Those table don't make sense! Min clearance is higher than Max clearances......Series one 1949 - in bits, chassis is strapped to the ceiling in my garage (beside the canoe)
LR 90 - In bits
Disco 3 - currently in bits
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