Avoidance, investments & dodging (illegal non payments)
Believe it or not the TAX collectors (HMRC) have to levy what the regulations say...if you ask them they are very fair & will spend ridiculous amounts of time (with patience) going through your affairs...& its totally free. If they are wrong they correct it without letters & bills for experts.
Avoidance is when what you should be paying isnt being paid either by circumventing some rule like not being resident here....go to the Isle of Man, Channel Islands, R-o-Ireland etc to start to do this. However you have to have some form of residency to do this (maybe dual residency) for the ordianry Joes like us its a few quid...& what you gain on the swings(doding) you lose onthe Roundabouts (have to do that).
Investments Putting your hard earned into schemes that dont attract tax isnt tax avoidance its being prudent...
- like ISA's is being very prudent as you get some interest & can have your money quick if conditions dictate that...unlike shares which arent quick to get rid of & ytou can lose the lot...
Dodging What Jimmy Carr did & Mr Barlow did is far greater than that...living substantially here (there are definitions of what this is) & not paying tax on what you earn or in thier cases "make" by participating in schemes is dodging....& if rules are broken its illegal. doesnt matter how much or who you are you have broken the law. You can break the law even if you put up nthe smoke screen you arent resident here. Many famous or rich make themselves tax exiles.
Rightly so...as to have it any other way means a free for all..or more correctly those who do pay pay what they are due subsidise those who dont...& I hate to think I subsidise those who are lucky or brazen enought to get huge sums per week for very very little.
Personally to my line of thought - the harder HMRC hit & enforce the rules the better it is for all who do observe the regs....its like not paying road tax, being uninsured, not paying your rates, ignoring bills..at some stage the system catches up with you & you are brought to book. The higher up the food chain you are the bigger the amount & the greater the publicity.
I (suspect many others) have absolutely no sympathy....in fact the utmost disdain
....as I said before FINE THE T.W.A.T.S
& if they do deem themselves tax exiles take thier residency, passports & rights of rexsidency away...why should they enjoy or have privelidges if they dont contribute ?BREXIT - done properly.
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15th May 2014 7:48 am
crews control
Member Since: 18 Mar 2007
Location: Dorset
Posts: 5011
Quote:
Believe it or not the TAX collectors (HMRC) have to levy what the regulations say...
Unless of course you take the Revenue's Head of Tax out for dinner, and get your pesky £7billion tax demand reduced to £1billion... like Vodafone.
Makes the tax affairs of a few dodgy celebrities and normo's like us pale into insignificance really?
15th May 2014 8:24 am
LT
Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: South West
Posts: 23366
BLF, I think you've misunderstood the type of plan that Barlow invested in. It was to obtain tax relief from HMRC, under legislation from the Government at the time. who introduced it to attract private funding for UK enterprises.
He can't be fined as he personally hasn't committed any crime, offence or contravention. The plan he invested in has had a Closure Notice put on it. Basically, this means that the HMRC don't approve it and as such the tax relief that he received will have to be paid.
Although actually in Barlow's case, some of the tax relief is eligible, but a significant amount isn't. Of course most of the press have failed to mention that.2006 D3 HSE (Original & still the best)-GONE
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15th May 2014 12:27 pm
countrywide
Member Since: 16 Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 6019
Who is Gary Barlow ?
15th May 2014 1:09 pm
DG Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50934
BLF, I think you've misunderstood the type of plan that Barlow invested in. It was to obtain tax relief from HMRC, under legislation from the Government at the time. who introduced it to attract private funding for UK enterprises.
He can't be fined as he personally hasn't committed any crime, offence or contravention. The plan he invested in has had a Closure Notice put on it. Basically, this means that the HMRC don't approve it and as such the tax relief that he received will have to be paid.
Although actually in Barlow's case, some of the tax relief is eligible, but a significant amount isn't. Of course most of the press have failed to mention that.
Oh...so either he was mislead.......or HMRC changed thier minds...or the rules altered...silly him
I still think he ought to be fined....for even thinking his rich pickings were somehoow exempt....BREXIT - done properly.
Right now ...We need Government - not Politics
Save the Dipstick Flagbearer-keep it simple, less likely to fail campaign-agenda items:Starting Handles, Acetylene Lamps.
Founder: Dipsticks-R-Us Inc
D3 HSE-perfectly formed, passenger friendly...has real DIPSTICK
Jag XK-but sadly no DIPSTICK...HUGE design fault
FL2 has DIPSTICK..."real comfort in rear seats"
VW Golf wondermobile (?)..has real DIPSTICK
Morris Minor..original DIPSTICK technology..and a real KEY.
16th May 2014 11:24 am
LT
Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: South West
Posts: 23366
BLF, the scheme (actually a Partnership) was registered with HMRC, it had to be to obtain Tax Relief for those who invested in it.
With some of these and similar (Film Partnerships) partnerships, the lawyers and accountants, who put together the partnerships, bent and twisted the HMRC guidelines. So when HMRC finally got around to checking up on it, they could see that it wasn't within the "Spirit" of the legislation.
Of course the management argue that it's all legit and it ends up at a FTT. The Tax Judge at this FTT decides that the partnership is bending the legislation too far. Result is that HMRC put a closure notice on it, the Tax Relief was not allowed and thus needs to be paid.
Barlow was, IMO, almost certainly badly advised. At the very least he should have been told that this particular partnership was sailing very close to the wind and to ensure that he had sufficient reserves to pay HMRC if they decided to close it. Perhaps he was. As Pelyma correctly pointed out, we don't know actually know if he was badly advised or not, but I'll go with my gut feeling on this based on over 20 years of experience.
I don't know why you think he should be fined though. For what? Remember, this tax relief is given by HMRC because the Govt. wants to encourage private funding for UK enterprise.
What he did was perfectly legal and above board, indeed it's what the Government want to encourage. It simply didn't work in the eyes of the HMRC, so it was disallowed. He now has to pay the tax. It's hardly crime of the century is it?
Put it into a simpler and lower key (less £'s) scenario. You could invest into an Investment ISA, the managers of which then manipulate the ISA legislation. HMRC find out, disallow the ISA status and the tax relief that your investment had attracted will be taken away.
In that scenario, should you be fined as well? If you had been awarded a Civil Honour should you give it back?2006 D3 HSE (Original & still the best)-GONE
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16th May 2014 2:51 pm
DG Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50934
There's legal then there's moral ... I want the multi millionaire Gary Barlow to realise that some in society need him to be parting with his normal tax remit in order that they can perhaps be given an opportunity to survive.
Oh and they keep banging on about charity work ...well Jimmy Savile did a lot for charity 21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
Last edited by DG on 16th May 2014 3:20 pm. Edited 1 time in total
16th May 2014 3:09 pm
Phantomf4
Member Since: 01 Jan 2014
Location: Renfrewshire
Posts: 201
Bernie Ecclestone... owed an estimated £1.2BN in tax, yet paid £10M, pretty cool negotiator eh?
Oh, wait... isn't he on trial for bribery and corruption in Germany?
16th May 2014 3:13 pm
LT
Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: South West
Posts: 23366
This is legal, encouraged by the Government who reward you with tax relief, registered with the HMRC who have to initially approve the tax relief.
Some people don't seem to understand that these schemes exist to support the genuine business investment into the UK creative industries.
In this particular case, the partnership was pretty obviously taking the p**s. So quite rightly, IMO, the tax relief has been disallowed. I think that the HMRC have been far too slow at overseeing such plans.
I'm able to differentiate between an individuals personal financial affairs and the work he/she does for charity. I don't see the correlation myself.
Investing in a failed partnership is not in my mind remotely comparable to being a long term prolific pedophile.
We all entitled to our own opinions though. 2006 D3 HSE (Original & still the best)-GONE
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16th May 2014 3:32 pm
DG Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50934
Of course it's not comparable and I didn't say it was ...my point is that although you can mitigate you can't really try and fob off a situation on the basis that you've "done some charity work" ...Jimmy Carr does plenty of charity work but as with every other aspect of this story he was vilified regardless even though he paid up more than was owed immediately and without fuss. What have we heard from Barlow ...Nil Point
...and yes I understand that there are schemes to boost business and that there is "normal" advice to everyone and every business on being tax prudent ...I get that ....I'm happy with that.
Complex, snidy, shifty Dr. Evil style scheme calculation is what I detest legal or not and anyone who says "Aye alright go on then " when making decisions to enter them deserves everything including the wrath of the "simple" people when it goes tits up 21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
16th May 2014 3:47 pm
LT
Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: South West
Posts: 23366
I think it's the press and the likes of us who have brought charity work into this. Afaik, neither Barlow or Carr have raised the subject.
I'm sure Barlow will pay the tax, quite possibly with interest.
What I'd like to see is clearer legislation from the HMRC and greater regulation and overseeing of these plans. Then this situation would never arise in the first place. I fail to see why such plans aren't regulated by the FCA.
It's obvious, human nature being what it is, that these plans would be wide open for abuse. It's why I've chosen not to recommend them or indeed any any non-regulated investment to my clients.
It's a shame, as such plans, when managed correctly are a valuable source of much needed investment capital to UK creative industries. They are also potentially very high risk, which is why Tax Relief is offered as an incentive to investors prepared to take this level of risk.
It's a positive at least that the current Govt. are finally getting around to doing what should have been done years ago.2006 D3 HSE (Original & still the best)-GONE
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16th May 2014 4:29 pm
highlands
Member Since: 11 Jan 2010
Location: NW Highlands
Posts: 5095
DG wrote:
I want the multi millionaire Gary Barlow to realise that some in society need him to be parting with his normal tax remit in order that they can perhaps be given an opportunity to survive.
I am working with a Midlands based engineering firm who have developed some ground-breaking (no, not fracking ) power generation technology.
They have it working on the bench but needed about another £10m to get it to a commercial product.
We got some money in from government but by far the majority of the money was from wealthy UK individuals who get a tax break for investing in the firm. It directly results in about 20 full-time engineering jobs, lots of UK supply chain benefits and, hopefully, a world-leading engineering product coming from the UK.
Without the tax breaks it wouldn't have been worth the risk for the rich UK taxpayers and we would not have got funding. As it was we reached 2 weeks money left in the business before we closed the funding. So we went from 30 high-skilled UK employees losing their jobs to an additional 20, for now, gaining them.
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16th May 2014 4:52 pm
LT
Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: South West
Posts: 23366
Well pointed out highlands
The press fail to mention such facts.
The masses who are ignorant of such plans, just see "rich celebrity, friend of enter whichever political party avoids paying tax " then jump on their (moral) high horses, act as jury and executioner and well just read this thread!2006 D3 HSE (Original & still the best)-GONE
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Last edited by LT on 16th May 2014 5:21 pm. Edited 1 time in total
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