Member Since: 10 Jun 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 1625
Pelyma wrote:
I'm not sure we know enough to say he received bad advice, he received advice that HMRC have subsequently prevented from working. Most of you on here will have avoided tax at some stage, be it by an ISA or a pension a few may even have used trusts or esoteric investments such as a VCT or an EIS. over the years I have avoided enough tax for my clients to be firmly off HMRC's Christmas card list.
Really?
What is tax avoidance?
Tax avoidance is an attempt to exploit legislation to gain a tax advantage that was never intended. This often involves artificial transactions that serve little or no purpose other than to produce a tax advantage.
But tax avoidance is not the same as tax planning, which involves applying tax legislation in the way it was intended - for example saving in an ISA (Individual Savings Account) where you don't pay tax on the interest.
You can find out the sorts of activity that HMRC may consider as avoidance from the leaflet 'Tempted by tax avoidance'.
So ISA, pensions, VCT's etc are not tax avoidance and those of us who pay our PAYE, save for pensions and rainy days with ISA's are not tax dodgers/avoiders.
The Tempted leaflet is free to download, well worth a read.
I have reviewed my tax affairs and can say I am not a tax dodging lowlife, but have good advisers who provide tax planning advice rather than mickey mouse tax avoidance schemes.
Which means I can criticise Gary Barlow as a tax dodging git.
Only because I don't have millions to dodge tax on Tony
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13th May 2014 2:36 pm
Garagegmx
Member Since: 09 Feb 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 916
Pelyma, I really object to you saying ISAs are the same as what Barlow did. If that the depth of your knowledge, I am surprised you still have clients.
13th May 2014 3:08 pm
Moo D3 Decade
Member Since: 13 Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 14429
That's just semantics. Like you, I take tax planning advice to minimise and avoid paying tax.
13th May 2014 3:22 pm
astonbuilder
Member Since: 29 Sep 2006
Location: MIDLANDS
Posts: 8142
I went self employed for a about 5 years and first year I did my own 'tax affairs' as straightforward adding up a line of in and out numbers that had to be the same at bottom of the page, how hard can it be
Over a coffee or suchlike with various mates you started to hear the "what you need to do...." tales "all legal and legit" that every self-employed person I got to know was doing with various employment type specific tricks and loopholes. There are 100's of 1000's of hard-working people doing these all very legally (and not that dodgy sounding either I admit but some DO get a "really, you can claim for that?" now and again). Extrapolate that out and I bet it covers a Barlow or three..... Don't think anyone wants that to be cut out but affect of 10,000 people finding way round £2k of tax going out of their pocket is no 'worse' than one mega-rich legal loophole (immoral or otherwise) of £20m (assuming my maths is correct )
The absolute best bit of advice I got was to employ an accountant, can't remember what I was paying but it was certainly less than fifty quid a month whilst not being a "city type" was certainly more than competent. My initial thought was "whaaaat, six hundred quid a year?" or whatever it was I paid
Next month and from there on for next 3-4 years though I was at least £100 a month better off and every now and then something else I could claim popped up. Bonus on top of that was at end of year my tax provison was greater than actual to pay so I got a bit back as well
When I went back into employed PAYE I had to earn about £3k more just to be at break even before I started.
Illegal? Yep, jail the , take 'em down, knick their 'lapel badge' back or whatever. Immoral or a 'bit dodgy' because the chancellor HMRC f d up then tough, close the loophole and let the 'game' carry on
13th May 2014 3:59 pm
Pelyma
Member Since: 06 Jan 2005
Location: Patching, Sussex
Posts: 15496
Garagegmx wrote:
Pelyma, I really object to you saying ISAs are the same as what Barlow did. If that the depth of your knowledge, I am surprised you still have clients.
Not sure where I said Gary Barlow invested in an ISA, but I am really chuffed that you are offended and thank you for your business advice, it seems as good as Gary Barlow's advisers. DS3 TDV6 HSE - Silver with Alpaca (old one) Gone
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13th May 2014 4:09 pm
Pelyma
Member Since: 06 Jan 2005
Location: Patching, Sussex
Posts: 15496
ruggedpeak wrote:
So ISA, pensions, VCT's etc are not tax avoidance and those of us who pay our PAYE, save for pensions and rainy days with ISA's are not tax dodgers/avoiders.
That's because you are not looking in the right places, there are plenty of EIS, VCT and pension schemes that are pure tax avoidance.
At the end of the day I've never met anyone that says yippee I've pay £x tax this month, people are desperate to use their ISA allowance because they want to avoid paying tax, they set up Discounted Gift Trusts to avoid paying inheritance tax, they use EIS to avoid IHT, get income tax relief and defer CGT and so on. Most "mainstream' tax planning routes are only there as long as HMRC allows them to happen. Look at discounts for over 90s on Discounted Gift Trusts, IR35 legislation and so on.
Tax planning is a fluid process; the Government drafts the laws and advisors work with it. When the Government finds the law is poorly drafted and people drive a coach and horses through it they then amend it. This then catches out those schemes that were taking the mickey. As an adviser you have to decide using your business judgement which schemes are too good to be true and which are likely to stand the test of time. But if I said to you spend a quid with me and I reckon I can save you £100 tax you'd probably go for it; guess what Gary Barlow did........DS3 TDV6 HSE - Silver with Alpaca (old one) Gone
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13th May 2014 4:29 pm
Hairy Dan
Member Since: 19 Jan 2011
Location: Co. Durham
Posts: 12319
Paul I wouldn't worry about Garagegmx, I think he has the same level of knowledge as two previous members of this forum ie Danger Dave and Trigger Cheers Ian
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13th May 2014 4:31 pm
LT
Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: South West
Posts: 23832
Pelyma, you're right I don't know enough about it. However, from what I've read about how the partnerships (managed by Icebreaker) worked, it's obvious that they were really "stretching" the spirit of the law and therefore it was likely to fail if ever closey scrutinised by HMRC. I wouldn't have gone near it.
So, I still hold that he was given bad advice. I also think that he's been very ignorant, naive and ultimately overtrusting.
It easy to say with hindsight, but he should have sought the opinion of at least one or more QC's prior to investing.
As I've already said though, he's a singer/song writer, not a businessman.
After the Judge's decision at a First Tier Tribunal, HMRC have issued a closure notice on the scheme.
Whilst some tax relief was legitimate and will be allowed, most of it was found not to be. This tax relief will now have to be repaid.
I'm sure Barlow will pay it.
He's not, as some seem to think, been found guilty of committing an illegal offence and fined.
I'd like him to keep his honour, which I believe he was given for his work with numerous charities.2006 D3 HSE (Original & still the best)-GONE
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13th May 2014 5:40 pm
simon645
Member Since: 22 Feb 2012
Location: cumbria
Posts: 141
Barlow is just for Barlow nobody else, his charity is his own charity.
13th May 2014 6:14 pm
Moo D3 Decade
Member Since: 13 Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 14429
I see the debate has moved on
13th May 2014 7:55 pm
ruggedpeak
Member Since: 10 Jun 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 1625
Pelyma wrote:
guess what Gary Barlow did........
spent a quid and paid HMRC £20m?
Thanks but no thanks
although Ed Milliband thinks Gary was wrong to do it, so I may need to reconsider my position on this Tony
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13th May 2014 7:59 pm
LT
Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: South West
Posts: 23832
simon645 wrote:
Barlow is just for Barlow nobody else, his charity is his own charity.
This must be a lookalike then?:
https://www.looktothestars.org/celebrity/gary-barlow2006 D3 HSE (Original & still the best)-GONE
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14th May 2014 2:16 pm
mike23118
Member Since: 01 Oct 2010
Location: North Wales
Posts: 1028
Tax avoiding little bleeders, Who do they think will have to pay all the immigrants there benefits
14th May 2014 3:13 pm
Moo D3 Decade
Member Since: 13 Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 14429
No one: They're net contributors, but don't tell Nigel!
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That's just semantics. Like you, I take tax planning advice to minimise and avoid paying tax.
, take 'em down, knick their 'lapel badge' back or whatever. Immoral or a 'bit dodgy' because the chancellor HMRC f 
