Member Since: 07 Apr 2014
Location: Here
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Good point Hugh - lots of small local abattoirs disappeared and, thanks to the success of the supermarket, local butchers are fewer too. Just as there are fewer local bakeries and almost no fishmongers at all.Visiting from rrsport.co.uk
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"When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die! You don't know who's children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they were always going to have to do from the very beginning: SIT DOWN AND TALK!"
5th Oct 2021 9:06 am
LT
Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: South West
Posts: 23830
True, but the problem isn’t a lack of local family butchers, a very skilled job in my opinion.
It is a shortage of both abattoir workers and meat processors. The later being what could be described as an industrial butcher I suppose. Still skilful and hard work, but low paid and carried out in chilled production plants. Unsurprisingly, the U.K. domestic labour market isn’t keen on such work.
It’s far too simplistic to just say that wages should be increased. The domestic workforce still wouldn’t want to do the work, it would push up prices of U.K. meat and inevitably make it even less competitive against cheaper imported meat, some of which will be produced using lower welfare standards and drugs that would not be approved in the U.K.
What a mess!2006 D3 HSE (Original & still the best)-GONE
2010 D4 HSE (A bit bling)-GONE
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5th Oct 2021 9:21 am
RRSTDV8
Member Since: 07 Apr 2014
Location: Here
Posts: 13553
Part of the problem is that we've had 20-30 years of people being told to go to university. They do so and now end up with significant debt. That and the cost of housing, means that people need to find the highest paid jobs they can. Get paid minimum wage for a job in cold/wet conditions or get paid more working in a warm office? Not difficult to see why people don't choose to become slaughtermen.
It's not just slaughtermen and HGV drivers. As a society we have moved away from respecting those who do the important, but unglamorous jobs, even where those jobs might be well paid. Plenty of openings in the construction industry for electricians, plumbers, etc., and they are well paid jobs. But people don't want to do them. Why not?
And family butchers are fewer than they used to be, likewise bakeries, etc. They can't compete with the financial muscle of a supermarket chain. Those same chains make life easy for the consumer - one location for the entire weekly shop. One hour, job done, thanks very much. Also, they are relatively cheap. And that's because they use their financial muscle to drive down the prices they pay suppliers. And that means suppliers have to cut their costs. And where is that done? In the workforce, of course.
The problem is multi-layered and has been created by the changes society has allowed to be made over the last few decades. We are as much a part of the problem as Boris and the group of inbred halfwits he calls colleagues.Visiting from rrsport.co.uk
2012 RRS SDV6
2008 RRS TDV8
"When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die! You don't know who's children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they were always going to have to do from the very beginning: SIT DOWN AND TALK!"
5th Oct 2021 9:32 am
LT
Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: South West
Posts: 23830
Very true.
Pre pandemic the U.K. also had historically low unemployment rates. A fact that few see the significance of.
The U.K. needs “low skilled” workers, its own ageing domestic workforce is not there and not willingly to do such work.
A fact that is all too evident now EU FOM has ended.2006 D3 HSE (Original & still the best)-GONE
2010 D4 HSE (A bit bling)-GONE
2014 D4 HSE (Almost too bling)-GONE
2015 D4 HSE (A heated what?)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Written Off)-GONE
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5th Oct 2021 9:44 am
highlands
Member Since: 10 Jan 2010
Location: NW Highlands
Posts: 5103
In Denmark the abattoir workers are getting £20-£30 an hour.
In Germany they were, until very, very recently getting £3-£5 an hour.
How does Denmark keep a hold on abattoir business while paying £20-£30 an hour (compared to £9-£13 an hour in the UK)?
It has automated huge elements of the abattoir process.
The answer surely shouldn't be to bring in huge numbers of poorly paid workers.Black 05 TDV6 HSE Auto
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5th Oct 2021 11:46 am
LT
Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: South West
Posts: 23830
Highlands-Are you aware of the cost of living in Denmark in comparison to the U.K.?
The difference in animal welfare is a different topic, but noteworthy.2006 D3 HSE (Original & still the best)-GONE
2010 D4 HSE (A bit bling)-GONE
2014 D4 HSE (Almost too bling)-GONE
2015 D4 HSE (A heated what?)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Written Off)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Surely the last!) PD1881 rims-GONE
2017 FFRR SDV8 Autobiography (now semi-retired)
5th Oct 2021 12:23 pm
highlands
Member Since: 10 Jan 2010
Location: NW Highlands
Posts: 5103
I've worked in Denmark and am aware of the cost of things there thanks.
It doesn't change the fact that if we are to have competitive abbatoir operations in the UK without having masses of low-paid migrant workers we will need to automate much more than is currently the case.
Just as we no longer have, say, rows of people with pickaxes in quarries I think that would be a positive development.Black 05 TDV6 HSE Auto
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54 TDV6 SE Man (killed by me )
5th Oct 2021 1:00 pm
LT
Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: South West
Posts: 23830
That's great, working in Denmark must have been an amazing experience.
Sadly, the opportunity for others to do likewise has become very limited now that the UK is a third country.
You won't need me to explain that Danish wages are higher than those in the UK, due to the cost of goods, housing and services also being higher. Food being typically between 20-50% more expensive in Denmark for example.
Yes Danish abattoir's are more automated and are also far larger than those in the UK. you may also know from your time spent working in Denmark that they tend to be situated within close proximity of the vast pig farms, where the pigs are reared indoors in huge numbers:
The cost of more automation only becomes economically viable when it is used for large scale production.
As someone who keeps pigs, I somewhat shocked that you would approve of such large scale pig meat production.
I've no doubt that you would chose not to eat pork reared in such conditions, I certainly wouldn't, but you advocate Danish style production/slaughtering methods.
I am also puzzled as to why you would object to EU workers being gainfully employed and paying tax in the UK, doing jobs that the UK domestic workforce is unable/unwilling to do and instead would prefer to replace them where possible with automation. 2006 D3 HSE (Original & still the best)-GONE
2010 D4 HSE (A bit bling)-GONE
2014 D4 HSE (Almost too bling)-GONE
2015 D4 HSE (A heated what?)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Written Off)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Surely the last!) PD1881 rims-GONE
2017 FFRR SDV8 Autobiography (now semi-retired)
5th Oct 2021 4:36 pm
highlands
Member Since: 10 Jan 2010
Location: NW Highlands
Posts: 5103
I don't advocate Danish style pork production methods.
We have a lot of pigs being bred and the issue at the moment is that the abattoirs are not able to process as much as they normally would.
The slaughtering of the animals in Denmark is the same as we do here in the UK.
They are 'stunned' with CO2 and then bled.
Much more of the processing aspect has been automated however.
In what way is the mainstream UK slaughtering process better than the Danish?
I've worked in lots of countries. About half of them were outside the EU.
Of my wider family and friends who have worked abroad I reckon over half of them have worked outside the EU. Well, if you're going to work abroad it might as well be 'properly abroad' ! Black 05 TDV6 HSE Auto
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5th Oct 2021 7:27 pm
galwaygreen
Member Since: 30 Oct 2011
Location: plymouth
Posts: 6525
kicking off now....it appears big pigs are no good...the pork chops wont fit a super market package tray...WHAT A DISGRACEFUL SITUATION
10th Oct 2021 12:22 am
Moo D3 Decade
Member Since: 13 Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 14414
It is a sick and crazy situation. We can't even export them to be slaughtered in Europe anymore where there is capacity.
As for fitting supper market packaging, thats just crazy. The government need s to get a grip and take its head out of its 4rse! D4 HSE EU6 (Known as Jeeves)
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10th Oct 2021 10:02 am
LT
Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: South West
Posts: 23830
The government is to allow 800 foreign abattoir workers into the UK on temporary visas, after warnings from farmers of mass culls.
It previously said businesses should pay higher wages and invest in skills.
Far too late and will the workers from the EU and further afield come?2006 D3 HSE (Original & still the best)-GONE
2010 D4 HSE (A bit bling)-GONE
2014 D4 HSE (Almost too bling)-GONE
2015 D4 HSE (A heated what?)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Written Off)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Surely the last!) PD1881 rims-GONE
2017 FFRR SDV8 Autobiography (now semi-retired)
Last edited by LT on 14th Oct 2021 10:22 pm. Edited 1 time in total
14th Oct 2021 9:15 pm
DG Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50978
Member Since: 22 Feb 2013
Location: Northants
Posts: 889
I work in the food industry. I can tell you there is no shortage of unskilled labour. We haven’t yet been affected by this but people have had enough of working in these conditions.
I for one was a field engineer for 22 years going to every sector of the food industry.
I got offered a management roll in a food factory.
Took it, very big change but guess what? I’m not out in the cold, rain, covered in oil, getting called at 1am etc.
Times are changing, I know loads of people on the move at the moment, they say COVID has taught them some valuable lessons.
I think this is the case, we have apprentices earning 40k a year. And they are lacklustre as hell!
The gap is getting bigger and does need closing, but can’t close that much. There has to be a society gap, it’s just the way it is.
SteveYou remind me of a younger me, not much younger mind...perhaps even a little older!
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