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LT

Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: South West
Posts: 23823

2016 Discovery 4 3.0 TDV6 Landmark LE Auto Santorini Black

RRSTDV8 wrote:
No, the bit about 21 years of age is that is the cut off for dual nationality. She would have Bangladeshi nationality by descent up until she was 21 irrespective of having other nationality. Once she attained 21 years of age, she would have to drop her citizenship of another country in order for her Bangladeshi citizenship to continue.

Because the SoS removed her British citizenship before her 21st birthday (I wonder if that was done on purpose or was just a coincidence), her Bangladeshi descent-acquired citizenship would continue. Bangladesh could revoke her citizenship as there is nothing in the 1951 act about making someone stateless as there is in UK legislation.

Remember, she would have had to apply, and be approved, for dual nationality, which she was fully entitled to do prior to reaching the age of 21.

However, she did NOT apply and as such, the Bangladeshi government has declared Shamima Begum is not a Bangladeshi citizen and that (in their opinion) she is a British citizen by birth and has never applied for dual nationality with Bangladesh.

That seems clear enough to me and I agree with Lord Sumption when he says -"her Bangladeshi citizenship always was a legal fiction".

Which yet again begs the question of the legality of the SoS's decision. 2006 D3 HSE (Original & still the best)-GONE
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3rd Mar 2023 5:04 pm

pjm-84

Member Since: 04 Oct 2016
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 2589

Quote:
304.Mr Squires relied on certain dicta in Pham but these cut both ways. Lord Mance
emphasised that deprivation is “a radical step, particularly if the person affected has little
real attachment to the country of any other nationality that he possesses and is unlikely
to be able to return there” (para 98). Lord Sumption observed that de jure nationality
may not be “of any practical value even if it exists in point of law” (para 108). However,
the Supreme Court was not saying that it would be unlawful to deprive someone if the
inevitable consequence would be that she could not go to the country of which she is
technically a national.

Hence the appeal has failed......again.

3rd Mar 2023 7:31 pm

LT

Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: South West
Posts: 23823

I refer you to Lord Sumption’s quote.

I share his opinion as do many others, including perhaps most importantly Bangladesh.

Begum was a British citizen, she wasn’t “technically” a British citizen. She has never been a Bangladesh citizen.

International Law appears to be clear on the matter and there is no legal definition of a “technical citizen”.

The U.K. legal system has played loose on this, I think on that we both agree?

As I said, it’s unlikely this will be the end of the matter.

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2016 D4 Landmark (Written Off)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Surely the last!) PD1881 rims-GONE
2017 FFRR SDV8 Autobiography (now semi-retired)

3rd Mar 2023 8:39 pm

Moo
D3 Decade

Member Since: 13 Aug 2010
Location: UK
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2005 Discovery 3 TDV6 S Manual Zambezi Silver

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3rd Mar 2023 9:57 pm

pjm-84

Member Since: 04 Oct 2016
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 2589

3rd Mar 2023 10:00 pm

terryall

Member Since: 17 Jun 2011
Location: Whitstable
Posts: 1433

2009 Discovery 3 TDV6 HSE Auto Stornoway Grey

Thanks to everyone who has contributed as this has been a very good thread with excellent contributions with none of the name calling or toys out the pram scenarios. There’s plenty of traction left in this subject but not necessarily in a forward direction any more by us. I never expected it to be so intriguing when I open the thread ad it was just a comment about a rather objectionable TV commentator.
We are now finished! 6 LRs last one 2009 HSE D3.
Current D5 HSE LUX 2019.

3rd Mar 2023 10:21 pm

LT

Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: South West
Posts: 23823

Yes, let’s wait and see what the next appeal brings.

What this has highlighted for me is just how little power the SIAC has to scrutinise what if anything the Home Secretary has done to justify removing a person’s citizenship.

It’s been both interesting and shocking.

If anyone is still interested, I found this article to be a good, short summary of the SIAC in such cases:

https://theconversation.com/amp/shamima-be...ons-195524

Finally, it’s been great to have an adult discussion. Thank you.

2006 D3 HSE (Original & still the best)-GONE
2010 D4 HSE (A bit bling)-GONE
2014 D4 HSE (Almost too bling)-GONE
2015 D4 HSE (A heated what?)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Written Off)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Surely the last!) PD1881 rims-GONE
2017 FFRR SDV8 Autobiography (now semi-retired)

4th Mar 2023 12:25 am

RRSTDV8

Member Since: 07 Apr 2014
Location: Here
Posts: 13541

LT wrote:
RRSTDV8 wrote:
No, the bit about 21 years of age is that is the cut off for dual nationality. She would have Bangladeshi nationality by descent up until she was 21 irrespective of having other nationality. Once she attained 21 years of age, she would have to drop her citizenship of another country in order for her Bangladeshi citizenship to continue.

Because the SoS removed her British citizenship before her 21st birthday (I wonder if that was done on purpose or was just a coincidence), her Bangladeshi descent-acquired citizenship would continue. Bangladesh could revoke her citizenship as there is nothing in the 1951 act about making someone stateless as there is in UK legislation.

Remember, she would have had to apply, and be approved, for dual nationality, which she was fully entitled to do prior to reaching the age of 21.

That's not what the 1951 Citizen Act says. The section precluding dual citizenship simply does not apply to anyone under 21 years of age. Therefore anyone under 21 years of age can have dual nationality and does not need to apply for it. Visiting from rrsport.co.uk
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"When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die! You don't know who's children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they were always going to have to do from the very beginning: SIT DOWN AND TALK!"

4th Mar 2023 1:15 am

RRSTDV8

Member Since: 07 Apr 2014
Location: Here
Posts: 13541

LT wrote:
Yes, let’s wait and see what the next appeal brings.

What this has highlighted for me is just how little power the SIAC has to scrutinise what if anything the Home Secretary has done to justify removing a person’s citizenship.

The SoS is given the power by Parliament through legislation. That trumps anything else.

It's why it's so important that Parliament has time to scrutinise legislation, especially where it gives a SoS broad powers to do things including bringing in regulations. The very thing that, for example, the Tories tried to prevent during the B-word to-and-fro. Visiting from rrsport.co.uk
2012 RRS SDV6
2008 RRS TDV8
"When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die! You don't know who's children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they were always going to have to do from the very beginning: SIT DOWN AND TALK!"

4th Mar 2023 1:20 am

LT

Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: South West
Posts: 23823

Final word on this I promise, at least until the case crops up again in the future, which I expect it will.

I've just had a discussion with a King's Counsel about it. Specifically on if Begum was a Bangladeshi citizen or not.

He wouldn't be drawn on his opinion, as being the professional he is, he made it clear that a) it wasn't his field and b) he hadn't studied the Bangladeshi law.

What he did say is that he is aware of how divided the legal profession is on this and it had been a hot topic of conversation. Which is why the likes of Lord Sumption, a former Justice of the Supreme Court, wrote to the press about it.

He also told me that in the earlier case, expert witnesses had to be called to give evidence as apparently the Bangladesh nationality law is a minefield.

In a nutshell, he believed that the division of opinion is between those who believe that Bangladeshi Citizenship is a given right, to those who qualify, up to the age of 21 and those who believe that for that right Bangladesh has to be informed (application).

For the later, that would have entailed Begum's birth being registered with the Bangladesh High Commission in London. Which it was not.

Begum would have been granted British citizenship as a default by the registration of her birth here in Britain.

As experts in nationality law can't agree, I'm going to state that realistically I haven't got a clue if any international law has been broken or not.

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2010 D4 HSE (A bit bling)-GONE
2014 D4 HSE (Almost too bling)-GONE
2015 D4 HSE (A heated what?)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Written Off)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Surely the last!) PD1881 rims-GONE
2017 FFRR SDV8 Autobiography (now semi-retired)

6th Mar 2023 6:24 pm

Paul J.

Member Since: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Leafy Cheshire
Posts: 7621

Shamina Begum’s failure to apply for Bangladeshi citizenship and Bangladesh having the death penalty, may be wholly unrelated factors. Or, maybe not. An ex-Disco3 / FFRR owner ......

..... now on the JLR electric highway.

6th Mar 2023 7:11 pm

RRSTDV8

Member Since: 07 Apr 2014
Location: Here
Posts: 13541

You can't force someone to apply for nationality of a foreign country, especially one that they have never even visited.

The possibility of her being able to be a Bangladeshi citizen was the paper-thin excuse used to remove her British citizenship. Which must be worrying for anyone that might, hypothetically, be eligible for non-British citizenship.

If you want to complain about HMG, make sure you have no unknown foreign passports in your closet... Visiting from rrsport.co.uk
2012 RRS SDV6
2008 RRS TDV8
"When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die! You don't know who's children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they were always going to have to do from the very beginning: SIT DOWN AND TALK!"

6th Mar 2023 8:30 pm