LT
Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: South West
Posts: 23829
  
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Actually Ivan, I’m the kind of person that the Honourable Mr Justice Jay, who as you will know presided over the Special Immigration Appeals Commission (SIAC), describes when he stated and I quote-
“Reasonable people will profoundly disagree with the secretary of state, but that raises wider societal and political questions which it is not the role of this commission to address.”
I am also a father and an uncle who understands and has witnessed the vulnerability of teenagers.
I also remember how easily I could be influenced as a teenager and indeed beyond. Which is why I have learned to take time to analyse the situation carefully before making significant decisions.
I, like Justice Jay also recognise that and I quote him again-
“there was credible suspicion that Begum “was recruited, transferred and then harboured for the purpose of sexual exploitation”
I am also the type of person who enjoys a robust conversation or debate whilst playing the ball not the man! 2006 D3 HSE (Original & still the best)-GONE
2010 D4 HSE (A bit bling)-GONE
2014 D4 HSE (Almost too bling)-GONE
2015 D4 HSE (A heated what?)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Written Off)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Surely the last!) PD1881 rims-GONE
2017 FFRR SDV8 Autobiography (now semi-retired)
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 2nd Mar 2023 9:04 am |
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pjm-84
Member Since: 04 Oct 2016
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 2592
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But I wouldn't expect the judge to say anything different. Its called playing both sides! I've done it.
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| 2nd Mar 2023 9:16 am |
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Moleshome
Member Since: 15 Oct 2020
Location: Wokingham
Posts: 412
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icestationzebra wrote:LT wrote:I suspect that your children, like mine, have had a superior and more privileged upbringing to the likes of Begum in Bethnal Green. Which probably accounts for their greater maturity. I don’t think it’s relevant or fair to make the comparison. 
Does todays dreadful news/event alter your constant of a superior upbringing having better outcomes?
No, there are always going to be exceptions but as a general rule more 'privileged' backgrounds are associated with better life outcomes.
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| 2nd Mar 2023 9:50 am |
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RRSTDV8
Member Since: 07 Apr 2014
Location: Here
Posts: 13550
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Ivan wrote:@LT
I bet you are the sort of person who would have fought to stop Ernesto Elliott getting deported and then blame the subsequent murder on anyone but him.
You are the type of person who will blame everything on someone else rather than placing the blame where it truly lies.
Maybe he's a fire extinguisher person to your flaming torches and pitchfork person?  Visiting from rrsport.co.uk
2012 RRS SDV6
2008 RRS TDV8
"When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die! You don't know who's children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they were always going to have to do from the very beginning: SIT DOWN AND TALK!"
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| 2nd Mar 2023 10:20 am |
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LT
Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: South West
Posts: 23829
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JordsDisco wrote:That’s one way of putting it.
Please do refute my opinion or anything that I have posted JordsDisco, that's how a sensible discussion or debate works.
Just posting inane one- liners adds nothing to the discussion and to be frank doesn't reflect particularly well on yourself. 2006 D3 HSE (Original & still the best)-GONE
2010 D4 HSE (A bit bling)-GONE
2014 D4 HSE (Almost too bling)-GONE
2015 D4 HSE (A heated what?)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Written Off)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Surely the last!) PD1881 rims-GONE
2017 FFRR SDV8 Autobiography (now semi-retired)
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| 2nd Mar 2023 3:33 pm |
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LT
Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: South West
Posts: 23829
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Moleshome wrote:icestationzebra wrote:LT wrote:I suspect that your children, like mine, have had a superior and more privileged upbringing to the likes of Begum in Bethnal Green. Which probably accounts for their greater maturity. I don’t think it’s relevant or fair to make the comparison.
Does todays dreadful news/event alter your constant of a superior upbringing having better outcomes?
No, there are always going to be exceptions but as a general rule more 'privileged' backgrounds are associated with better life outcomes.
icestationzebra- see above comment from Moleshome. 2006 D3 HSE (Original & still the best)-GONE
2010 D4 HSE (A bit bling)-GONE
2014 D4 HSE (Almost too bling)-GONE
2015 D4 HSE (A heated what?)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Written Off)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Surely the last!) PD1881 rims-GONE
2017 FFRR SDV8 Autobiography (now semi-retired)
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| 2nd Mar 2023 3:35 pm |
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astonbuilder
Member Since: 29 Sep 2006
Location: MIDLANDS
Posts: 8138
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LT wrote:...........Just posting inane one- liners adds nothing to the discussion and to be frank doesn't reflect particularly well on yourself.
"play the ball not the man"  (and I do agree with you on that view)
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| 2nd Mar 2023 3:40 pm |
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LT
Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: South West
Posts: 23829
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pjm-84 wrote:But I wouldn't expect the judge to say anything different. Its called playing both sides! I've done it.
Yes, but the commission is subtlety different to a "normal" court and ultimately couldn't override the decision of the home secretary.
It's worth reading the judgement summary, which is only 22 bullet points:
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/upload...ummary.pdf
Reading between the lines of the judgement summary and particularly the wording of some quotes (see link to article below) from the Honourable Mr Justice Jay, it is obvious (at least to me) that he is not comfortable with the decision of the Home Secretary and shares the opinion of Lord Sumption.
Perhaps most telling, is- “the idea that Ms Begum could have conceived and organised all of this herself is not plausible”. The judges also said they were “concerned by the SyS’s [secretary of state’s] apparent downplaying of the significance of radicalisation and grooming in stating that what happened to Ms Begum is not unusual”.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/f...itizenship
2006 D3 HSE (Original & still the best)-GONE
2010 D4 HSE (A bit bling)-GONE
2014 D4 HSE (Almost too bling)-GONE
2015 D4 HSE (A heated what?)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Written Off)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Surely the last!) PD1881 rims-GONE
2017 FFRR SDV8 Autobiography (now semi-retired)
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| 2nd Mar 2023 3:47 pm |
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LT
Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: South West
Posts: 23829
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astonbuilder wrote:LT wrote:...........Just posting inane one- liners adds nothing to the discussion and to be frank doesn't reflect particularly well on yourself.
"play the ball not the man" (and I do agree with you on that view)
It needed repeating (sadly). 2006 D3 HSE (Original & still the best)-GONE
2010 D4 HSE (A bit bling)-GONE
2014 D4 HSE (Almost too bling)-GONE
2015 D4 HSE (A heated what?)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Written Off)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Surely the last!) PD1881 rims-GONE
2017 FFRR SDV8 Autobiography (now semi-retired)
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| 2nd Mar 2023 3:48 pm |
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pjm-84
Member Since: 04 Oct 2016
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 2592
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LT wrote:pjm-84 wrote:But I wouldn't expect the judge to say anything different. Its called playing both sides! I've done it.
Yes, but the commission is subtlety different to a "normal" court and ultimately couldn't override the decision of the home secretary.
It's worth reading the judgement summary, which is only 22 bullet points:
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/upload...ummary.pdf
Reading between the lines of the judgement summary and particularly the wording of some quotes (see link to article below) from the Honourable Mr Justice Jay, it is obvious (at least to me) that he is not comfortable with the decision of the Home Secretary and shares the opinion of Lord Sumption.
Perhaps most telling, is- “the idea that Ms Begum could have conceived and organised all of this herself is not plausible”. The judges also said they were “concerned by the SyS’s [secretary of state’s] apparent downplaying of the significance of radicalisation and grooming in stating that what happened to Ms Begum is not unusual”.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/f...itizenship
8 and 19 for me....slam, dunk....
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| 2nd Mar 2023 4:06 pm |
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LT
Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: South West
Posts: 23829
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Ivan wrote:@LT
I bet you are the sort of person who would have fought to stop Ernesto Elliott getting deported and then blame the subsequent murder on anyone but him.
You are the type of person who will blame everything on someone else rather than placing the blame where it truly lies.
I am puzzled as to why you would think that based only on my opinion on this specific case.
I am not alone in my opinion Ivan, even senior Conservatives have condemned the government’s treatment of Begum. David Davis, the vice-chair of the all-party parliamentary group on trafficked Britons in Syria, said it was “a shameful abdication of responsibility and must be remedied”.
Consider also that the Special Immigration Appeals Commission stated - “the idea that Ms Begum could have conceived and organised all of this herself is not plausible”.
They were also- “concerned by the SyS’s [secretary of state’s] apparent downplaying of the significance of radicalisation and grooming in stating that what happened to Ms Begum is not unusual”.
Then take into account the fact that she is not or ever was a Bangladeshi citizen and my opinion really isn't that wrong-headed. But please do refute it.
As for who is to blame, Begum is I doubt not blameless, but let her stand trial first rather than making assumptions.
In my opinion, it is those who groomed her are to blame. 2006 D3 HSE (Original & still the best)-GONE
2010 D4 HSE (A bit bling)-GONE
2014 D4 HSE (Almost too bling)-GONE
2015 D4 HSE (A heated what?)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Written Off)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Surely the last!) PD1881 rims-GONE
2017 FFRR SDV8 Autobiography (now semi-retired)
Last edited by LT on 2nd Mar 2023 4:49 pm. Edited 3 times in total
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| 2nd Mar 2023 4:21 pm |
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pjm-84
Member Since: 04 Oct 2016
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 2592
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I'm playing the ball not the man LT.
Appeal dismissed on all grounds
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| 2nd Mar 2023 4:34 pm |
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pjm-84
Member Since: 04 Oct 2016
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 2592
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Quote:As for who is to blame, Begum is I doubt not blameless, but let her stand trial first rather than making assumptions.
Separate matter.... the issue is the removal of her British citizenship and whether that was legal or not.
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| 2nd Mar 2023 4:38 pm |
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LT
Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: South West
Posts: 23829
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pjm-84 wrote:I'm playing the ball not the man LT.
Appeal dismissed on all grounds
Yes, good to have an adult discussion.
I doubt this will be have been the last appeal. 2006 D3 HSE (Original & still the best)-GONE
2010 D4 HSE (A bit bling)-GONE
2014 D4 HSE (Almost too bling)-GONE
2015 D4 HSE (A heated what?)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Written Off)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Surely the last!) PD1881 rims-GONE
2017 FFRR SDV8 Autobiography (now semi-retired)
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| 2nd Mar 2023 4:41 pm |
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LT
Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: South West
Posts: 23829
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pjm-84 wrote:Quote:As for who is to blame, Begum is I doubt not blameless, but let her stand trial first rather than making assumptions.
Separate matter.... the issue is the removal of her British citizenship and whether that was legal or not.
My comment about blame was referring to the post made by Ivan. See below:
Ivan wrote:@LT
I bet you are the sort of person who would have fought to stop Ernesto Elliott getting deported and then blame the subsequent murder on anyone but him.
You are the type of person who will blame everything on someone else rather than placing the blame where it truly lies.
As for removing her citizenship, that is a matter for the Home Secretary and clearly one that is very controversial, not least because she is not a citizen of another country and never has been.
It appears that the SIAC’s power to scrutinise what the Home Secretary has considered when cancelling a person’s citizenship is very limited.
In the absence of proper judicial oversight, it is nearly impossible to correct for (or even know of) any mistake or misuse in a minister’s exercise of power.
Given this background, it is unsurprising that Commission is unable to grapple with the complicated issues of trafficking, even while accepting that someone like Begum was likely trafficked.
It's not a great look for British justice! 2006 D3 HSE (Original & still the best)-GONE
2010 D4 HSE (A bit bling)-GONE
2014 D4 HSE (Almost too bling)-GONE
2015 D4 HSE (A heated what?)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Written Off)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Surely the last!) PD1881 rims-GONE
2017 FFRR SDV8 Autobiography (now semi-retired)
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| 2nd Mar 2023 4:47 pm |
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