Member Since: 08 Mar 2010
Location: Warwickshire
Posts: 1477
Robbie wrote:
When you fit an AGM battery to a D4 that has not been set for it the battery will receive a higher voltage than it would like. AGMs like to be 14.7v or below; if not tweaked it will receive up to 15.2v or more when the weather is cold.
As someone who has put an AGM battery onto a D4 that didn't come with one, how do you make that "tweak"?
I reset the BMS with my IID when I changed the battery but can't find any options on the IID to 'tell' the D4 that it now has an AGM battery fitted?
When winter comes will I be frying my new battery?
28th Jun 2015 9:21 pm
drivesafe
Member Since: 23 Feb 2006
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Posts: 867
Hi Discoteca and you are not going to fry it in a month or two, but earlier D4s had a similar BOOST cycle to a D3, just after starting but the D4 version is more dependent on the actual state of charge of your cranking battery at the time you started your motor.
This boost charge on a cold AGM while not recommended, long term, will not be that harmful to an AGM if it was in good condition and high state of charge when you started.
In cold temperatures, the BOOST cycle is likely to be higher but for a shorter time, and this is the primary difference between the D3 and D4 operation.
The problem is more likely to be of harm to an AGM during summer, when the battery is likely to be warmer and if your battery was in a low state of charge at the time when you start your motor.
The BOOST cycle, while it may or may not be as high in warmer temperatures ( and dependant on the SoC of the battery ), it may be for a much longer period, and this is where damage can be caused.
If you are not sure of how your D4 is set up, try ringing a few dealers and see what they might charge you to check and upgrade your software.2008 TDV8 RR Lux + 2009 D4 2.7
28th Jun 2015 11:32 pm
JohnnyG
Member Since: 25 Sep 2013
Location: Saddleworth
Posts: 26
Sharksharks what did you pay for yours at Griffin? Euro Car Parts at Hollinwood are doing the Bosch for £161 if you order online & collect from store
29th Jun 2015 8:05 am
Robbie
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
discoteca wrote:
Robbie wrote:
When you fit an AGM battery to a D4 that has not been set for it the battery will receive a higher voltage than it would like. AGMs like to be 14.7v or below; if not tweaked it will receive up to 15.2v or more when the weather is cold.
As someone who has put an AGM battery onto a D4 that didn't come with one, how do you make that "tweak"?
I reset the BMS with my IID when I changed the battery but can't find any options on the IID to 'tell' the D4 that it now has an AGM battery fitted?
When winter comes will I be frying my new battery?
There is a CCF parameter for the battery type on the IID. It's not named in a friendly way but if I get a chance I will find the exact wording.
Don't worry about the extra voltage as at summer temps the charging voltage is pretty much identical.
Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Member Since: 20 Dec 2008
Location: Saddleworth Oldham
Posts: 1954
JohnnyG wrote:
Sharksharks what did you pay for yours at Griffin? Euro Car Parts at Hollinwood are doing the Bosch for £161 if you order online & collect from store
Think I paid £125 !
But I always haggle MY18 D5 HSE LUX😎
MY12 Freelander SD4 HSE
44 Tonne 12 Litre 6x2 Scania T cab (Current)
Freelander 1 (Wrote off 😫)
Ex D1
Ex D2 GS
Ex V8 D2 GS
Ex D3 S
Ex D4 GS
Club skip ya lockers !!!
Club BAS remote heater !!
Club Duratrac
Club Phillips DRL
Club Prospeed Rack Mk 1
Club Prospeed Rack Mk 2
Club Sankey
Club RLD spare wheel protector
29th Jun 2015 9:56 am
Robbie
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
Robbie wrote:
discoteca wrote:
Robbie wrote:
When you fit an AGM battery to a D4 that has not been set for it the battery will receive a higher voltage than it would like. AGMs like to be 14.7v or below; if not tweaked it will receive up to 15.2v or more when the weather is cold.
As someone who has put an AGM battery onto a D4 that didn't come with one, how do you make that "tweak"?
I reset the BMS with my IID when I changed the battery but can't find any options on the IID to 'tell' the D4 that it now has an AGM battery fitted?
When winter comes will I be frying my new battery?
There is a CCF parameter for the battery type on the IID. It's not named in a friendly way but if I get a chance I will find the exact wording.
Don't worry about the extra voltage as at summer temps the charging voltage is pretty much identical.
Ok, found the settings for an AGM battery on the IIDTool but you may not be able to see them on your IID. I'll check with Pat and if they are not there on the normal firmware it can be added for you.
Click image to enlarge
Again, no concern at the moment as it will not push up the voltage until the winter hits.
Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Member Since: 23 Feb 2006
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Posts: 867
Robbie wrote:
Don't worry about the extra voltage as at summer temps the charging voltage is pretty much identical.
Robbie wrote:
Again, no concern at the moment as it will not push up the voltage until the winter hits.
Robbie, where did you get your battery knowledge from. They are irresponsible statements to make.
I have absolutely no idea how high the voltage in someone else’s D4 is going to operate at, but more importantly, neither do you, because the operating voltages in earlier D4s is governed by the owner’s usage.
There is no way to know how high the operating voltages can go, without either having access to Land Rovers software data for a given vehicle, or without actually monitoring that specific vehicle’s operating voltages while it's in use.
This is why I suggested contacting a dealership to get the correct info about what should be done when change from a Calcium/Calcium battery to an AGM.
The AGM used in the D4 has a maximum recommended operating of 14.7v, this is why, AS YOU YOURSELF STATED, new D4s do not operate at voltages over 14.7v.
For short periods of time, when these AGM batteries are cold, they will tolerate higher voltages but it is not recommended to allow the voltage to remain above 14.7v for more than a few minutes, particularly if the battery is already in a fully charged state and is warm.
To submit an AGM battery, with a maximum recommended voltage tolerance of 14.7, to a constant 15+v, regards of the time of year, will cause the battery to gas.
If an AGM gases, it looses capacity, and unlike when the capacity is decreased by sulfation, the lose of capacity caused by gassing is irreversible.
Doing short runs will not pose a problem, but any long drives will increase the potential to cause an irreversible decease in the battery’s capacity and help to shorten the battery’s normal life span.
Again, the best thing anyone can do, before changing from a Calcium/Calcium cranking battery to an AGM cranking battery, in contect a dealership and see what they have to say.2008 TDV8 RR Lux + 2009 D4 2.7
29th Jun 2015 7:16 pm
Robbie
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
Tim, I see you are as subtle as ever.
I'm not sure why you wish to instil panic but your concerns are unwarranted. The UK will have a heat wave in a few days, with temperatures approaching 32 deg C, so lets see what will happen:
- A D4 with wet cell logic set on the CCF will top-out at a regulated 14.0v (float @ 13.1v)
- A D4 with AGM logic set on the CCF will top-out at a regulated 14.1v (float @ 13.1v)
Really, no boiling, gassing, meteor strikes or any other cataclysmic event.
Feel free to take your comfort blanket into your favourite corner and calm down.
Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Member Since: 23 Feb 2006
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Posts: 867
Again, I don’t know where you get your info from, and again, you yourself stated that the voltage runs at no more than 14.7v.
Now, according to you, it's only 14.0v.
For those not sure as to whats happening under their bonnet, try measuring the operating voltage of your D4.
After you have been driving for 30 or more minutes, with the motor running but everything else turned off, try measuring the voltage at your cranking battery.
By turning everything off, you will get the lowest operating voltage readings.
Post up what you find.2008 TDV8 RR Lux + 2009 D4 2.7
29th Jun 2015 9:41 pm
Robbie
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
It's how ECU controlled alternators work. In lower temperatures the regulated 'accept' and 'float' voltages are increased. In warmer temperatures the maximum scheduled voltage is suppressed, in accordance with the charging schedule, to protect the battery.
Once you get to about 49 deg C the alternator output drops to idle battery voltage to protect from thermal runaway. AGMs have a lower internal resistance so produce less heat when current is going in or out. As such they are more tolerant of extreme temperatures and can take a slightly higher voltage than a regular wet cell battery in the same conditions.
All these factors are well-known to JLR and are reflected in the charging schedules programmed into the vehicle, with the appropriate one being called upon by a CCF parameter. The D4 wet cell schedule does not breach 14.7v at the higher 'accept' rate (float around 13.8v) until the temperature reduces to about 13 deg C.
The 2 examples I gave in my last post at 32 deg C are in accordance with the D4 charging schedules. If the correct ECU to alternator communication fails the maximum alternator output is throttled to around 14.4v.
It's just the way it is.
Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Member Since: 26 Apr 2011
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 2990
I presume the d3 is just a straight swap for the battery?
30th Jun 2015 6:46 am
discoteca
Member Since: 08 Mar 2010
Location: Warwickshire
Posts: 1477
Dropped Pat a note last night so hopefully it will make it into a forthcoming beta release.
Robbie - I see in your screenshot that 'battery type' is specified in two parameters in the CCF. Is it the top one (currently set to undefined 27) that is the relevant setting? I assume that you have AGM battery so type 27 would be the correct one to pick?
30th Jun 2015 6:53 am
drivesafe
Member Since: 23 Feb 2006
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Posts: 867
Once again, the operating voltage of a D4 is not just dependant on ambient temperatures.
For example, I had a number of customers with the BMS maintaining the alternator voltage at a constant 12.2v for around two months.’
Both had to have the software upgrade to fix the problem.
One of the customers maintained the hidden screen all the time to watch his voltage levels.
They never rose above 12.3v for the two months, yet driving home from the dealers, after the software upgrade, he rang me to tell me his operating voltage was now a constant 14.7v and our temperatures over that period were 35 to 40 degrees.
So Robbie, your THEORY does not match reality.
For the benefit those considering changing from a Calcium/Calcium battery to an AGM, ring your dealership first.
Furthermore, if you get the battery changed through a dealership, they will automatically upgrade your software, as required by LR.
Hi sean, I honestly can’t give you advice on what needs to be done if you have a D3 and replace the Calcium/Calcium battery with an AGM, again give your local dealership a call and see what they suggest.2008 TDV8 RR Lux + 2009 D4 2.7
30th Jun 2015 7:04 am
Robbie
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
sean 471 wrote:
I presume the d3 is just a straight swap for the battery?
Hi Sean,
For the D3 a regular wet cell battery works just fine and with the Exide one so cheap and so good it is an obvious choice for many so few will need to adjust the CCF. We did have problems with our armoured D3s in very hot and high conditions so we installed AGMs together with a software tweak. These outlasted the vehicles(!).
Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
discoteca wrote:
Dropped Pat a note last night so hopefully it will make it into a forthcoming beta release.
Robbie - I see in your screenshot that 'battery type' is specified in two parameters in the CCF. Is it the top one (currently set to undefined 27) that is the relevant setting? I assume that you have AGM battery so type 27 would be the correct one to pick?
Pat and I did I have a chat about the best way to get the functions to you. The two settings that are relevant are the 'undefined 27' (which is where almost all D4s are set anyway as I am not sure the parameter is used in all software loads) and the 'H8HD 90Ah...' setting.
Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
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