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amondeggs
Member Since: 03 Sep 2009
Location: Telford
Posts: 155
  
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| Torque convertor / gearbox problems need rebuild advice req |
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Hi I have a diaso 3 hse 2005 with 89k miles on the clock.
I had vibrations when accelerating and when driving uphill. This began a year ago and I did the double flush technique along with filter change which appeared to resolve the problem.
However the vibration came back a couple of weeks ago except this time more pronounced. I had the car serviced by landrover specialist (roean telford) who checked it over and could not find any reason for the vibration apart from the gearbox.
I took the car to 4 Tec a few days ago for a megaflush hoping that this would finally sort it out. I was really dissapointed not with the service etc but the fact that despite the megaflush the car was no better but actually appeared worse.
I have spoken to a couple of gearbox specialists today and from the symptoms that I have described to them which are
1) noisy transmission 2) vibrations when accelerating or driving uphill 3) slight rise and fall of revs as if the transmission is slipping.
they have told me it is the torque convertor that is at fault as the clutch inside it is what is slipping and the heat that this generates can pass through the transmission and in turn damage it.
I was advised that the extent of the damage would not be known until it was dismantled.
I live in Telford and am looking for advice as to the best transmission specialist to turn to and any ideas of price. Would like to know from the best case ie replace torque convertor to worst case complete transmission rebuild.
Thanks in advance for your help !
Kind Regards
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 2nd Oct 2010 8:52 pm |
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caverD3
Member Since: 02 Jul 2006
Location: Oberon, NSW
Posts: 6922
  
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Mine has been doing the same change of ATF made no difference. ZF Oz say "The symptoms do reflect those of a damaged / worn convertor lockup clutch lined disc."
My warranty insurance guys say it is more likely due to poor ATF flow causing bushings to wear leading to the vibration.
I guess I will find out when they strip it down. Mine is going to A&B in Melbourne who know the transmission.
I would suggest you find someone who has done one before. “There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely gamesâ€
Ernest Hemmingway
D4 3.0 Active Diff, Adaptive Lights, High Beam Assist, Surround Cameras, Privacy Glass.
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| 2nd Oct 2010 11:36 pm |
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amondeggs
Member Since: 03 Sep 2009
Location: Telford
Posts: 155
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Thanks for that at least I am not on my own then. It makes me wonder how many more will end up in this position following the double flush. I thought I had resolved the problem a year ago. 
I will try to find a local specialist who can quote on the work.
I did speak to chap yesterday in London who was very knowledgeable he told me £550 + vat for torque convertor fitted this was best case price. Or £1945 + vat for new torque convertor plus full refurb of transmission. This did carry a 2 year warranty
Would be better to find local srvice centre
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| 3rd Oct 2010 10:24 am |
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Renton
Member Since: 13 Jan 2009
Location: Somewhere in the middle
Posts: 1718
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That makes 3 of us. After changing the intercooler hose I thought the judder had gone. Unfortunately its still there. My Indy will have à look again this week. Between the 3 of us we should be able to solve it. As soon as I have an update i will post it. CLUB ILLEGAL CAR WASHERS
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| 3rd Oct 2010 5:01 pm |
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amondeggs
Member Since: 03 Sep 2009
Location: Telford
Posts: 155
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HI Renton sorry to hear that you appear to have the same problem ! I am going to try to get more quotes tomorrow on 1) replacing the torque convertor and 2 ) replacing the torque convertor and refurb of transmission.
I need to decide if the car is worth repairing or do I drop it and buy another 
Really dont want to see the car go and therefore am hoping that job is not too expensive
Keep you posted
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| 3rd Oct 2010 8:24 pm |
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SteveNorman
Member Since: 14 Oct 2005
Location: Somerset
Posts: 1146
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About a year ago I was looking, with interest at the posts about fluid changes 'curing' the judder.
I didn't want to say anything, as was interested to see if the fluid changes did cure it.
I spoke to a good friend of mine who specialises in autobox rebuilding & he said that he had experienced the problem with both Jag & Landrover, & that it was the torque converter clutch & that a fluid change would prolong the inevitable but the torque converters would require renewal eventually. The ones he's had in, a torque converter cured them.
He has tried various remanufactered converters, & all were not good enough, he suggested Landrover ones or new oe ones only (not available at the time).
It seems a fluid change before any symptoms arise is a good preventative measure, & may save the converter, but before the converter clutch is worn too much.
I see the retail for a converter from Landrover is nearly £900inc vat. 
HTH
Steve
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| 4th Oct 2010 7:15 am |
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Renton
Member Since: 13 Jan 2009
Location: Somewhere in the middle
Posts: 1718
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SteveNorman wrote:About a year ago I was looking, with interest at the posts about fluid changes 'curing' the judder.
I didn't want to say anything, as was interested to see if the fluid changes did cure it.
There might be 2 causes for juddering?
Many people experienced a mild judder which was and stayed cured by a megaflush and new filter. CLUB ILLEGAL CAR WASHERS
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| 4th Oct 2010 7:29 am |
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PaulP
Member Since: 04 May 2007
Location: Barcelona
Posts: 4317
 
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This thread is very interesting......I may be in the same boat as you guys and would like to know your opinion 
About a year ago (obviously when the warranty had just finished  ) I started to notice that my auto-box would "slip" when under load and accelerating hard in 2nd and 3rd gears.
I performed a double flush at home with Motul Multi ATF (meets the M1374.5 spec), which cured the problem for a week or so.
In June I got my local LR workshop to perform another double flush (using LR ATF) and they also replaced the pan filter.
This time the problem was solved for around 3 weeks until it started again. I can now provoke the slipping easily in 2nd and 3rd gears, but have to say that it is less noticeable in command shift or under gentle acceleration.
It may also be slipping in 1st, but the revs rise so quickly anyway under acceleration that it's hard to confirm.
To give you an idea, if I start accelerating up a slight incline with a heavy(ish) right foot, the revs will shoot up to 3000rpm (ish) and stay there whilst the car catches up - it pulls strongly, but it feels as if it is just slipping....when it changes up to 3rd gear the revs will often rise again to 3000-3500rpm and stay there whilst accelerating.....if I "feather" the throttle I can make the revs rise and fall whilst it is accelerating.
There is no real juddering, although the change can sometimes feel a little abrupt (it was very smooth straight after the oil changes).
Does this sound like a problem with the torque convertor lock-up clutch? I must admit that it is driving me crazy 
When people say that the torque convertor requires replacement I get a little confused as it is simply a bunch of plates (impellor, stator, rotor) etc that push oil around between them to transfer drive - how can these wear out?? Or is it actually ancilliary parts that need replacing (lock-up clutches etc)? Or are they all built-in to one assembly?
Cheers,
Paul 2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE Auto Buckingham Blue
2007 Golf GT DSG
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| 4th Oct 2010 7:35 am |
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Renton
Member Since: 13 Jan 2009
Location: Somewhere in the middle
Posts: 1718
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amondeggs wrote:HI Renton sorry to hear that you appear to have the same problem ! I am going to try to get more quotes tomorrow on 1) replacing the torque convertor and 2 ) replacing the torque convertor and refurb of transmission.
I need to decide if the car is worth repairing or do I drop it and buy another
Really dont want to see the car go and therefore am hoping that job is not too expensive
Keep you posted
I also asked TLO for a quote. New group buy?
Actually I had the same thoughts as you. Sell it and buy a new one. But the other hand, if this is solved I fixed allmost every critical aspect on the D3 which should give me many more painless miles in the time to come...... CLUB ILLEGAL CAR WASHERS
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| 4th Oct 2010 7:37 am |
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Renton
Member Since: 13 Jan 2009
Location: Somewhere in the middle
Posts: 1718
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PaulP wrote:
This time the problem was solved for around 3 weeks until it started again. I can now provoke the slipping easily in 2nd and 3rd gears, but have to say that it is less noticeable in command shift or under gentle acceleration.
It may also be slipping in 1st, but the revs rise so quickly anyway under acceleration that it's hard to confirm.
To give you an idea, if I start accelerating up a slight incline with a heavy(ish) right foot, the revs will shoot up to 3000rpm (ish) and stay there whilst the car catches up - it pulls strongly, but it feels as if it is just slipping....when it changes up to 3rd gear the revs will often rise again to 3000-3500rpm and stay there whilst accelerating.....if I "feather" the throttle I can make the revs rise and fall whilst it is accelerating.
Cheers,
Paul
Hi Paul,
I can confirm that I have exactly the same symptons.
When I use command shift and keep the revs high on acceleration I can avoid the judder. When I feel the judder coming up and go back 1 gear its gone.
There is one possitive side to this story, using command shift and keeping the revs up gave me 850km/528miles on a full tank! CLUB ILLEGAL CAR WASHERS
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| 4th Oct 2010 7:51 am |
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Renton
Member Since: 13 Jan 2009
Location: Somewhere in the middle
Posts: 1718
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| Group buy Torque Converter |
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I spoke to Nick at Yeovil abou the pricing for a torque converter. If the converter is really the issue then I guess there will be quiet some members who need one  Group buy?
If we can order 10 the price is £567.86 exc vat.
Regular price with forum discount is 605.72 excl. vat. CLUB ILLEGAL CAR WASHERS
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| 4th Oct 2010 3:18 pm |
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amondeggs
Member Since: 03 Sep 2009
Location: Telford
Posts: 155
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Well the plot thickens ! I really am not alone in this mess !
I have spoken to a local ZF transmission specialist today who routinely work on Zf boxes in landrovers and jags. He was very knowledgeable about them as you would expect. He did seem to think that it was the torque convertor that was at fault. I am meeting him hopefully on Thursday and he is going to test drive my car as he says from this and his experience he should be able to diagnose the problem.
Renton I really have the same thoughts as you with regard to getting rid of the car as I have just had a full service, sorted my egr's out , fitted a new compressor etc etc. I dont want to get rid and buy another to start all over again.
Paul I did have similiar symptoms to yours with the revs surging and it does appear that the car is playing catch up. When cruising at high speed on the motorway, say 85 ish I notice the revs rising and falling a couple of hundred or so. I have been told this is due to the wet clutch in the torque convertor effectively slipping because it is worn out.
Will keep you all posted following my test drive on thursday.
Thanks for your interest
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| 4th Oct 2010 8:43 pm |
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Renton
Member Since: 13 Jan 2009
Location: Somewhere in the middle
Posts: 1718
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amondeggs wrote:
Paul I did have similiar symptoms to yours with the revs surging and it does appear that the car is playing catch up. When cruising at high speed on the motorway, say 85 ish I notice the revs rising and falling a couple of hundred or so. I have been told this is due to the wet clutch in the torque convertor effectively slipping because it is worn out.
My symptons are somewhat different. My revs surge around 2000rpm when accelerating fast or going up an incline where the engine requires more "torque".
At cruising speed I don't have a problem. CLUB ILLEGAL CAR WASHERS
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| 4th Oct 2010 8:52 pm |
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amondeggs
Member Since: 03 Sep 2009
Location: Telford
Posts: 155
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Just recieved a quote from another company I have been talking to re torque convertors. They will supply and fit genuine parts (torque convertor) and warrent work for 2 years for 550 +vat (£646 fitted)
Impressed with this quote and the 2 year warranty. However for me it would mean a trip to london?
Will see what Zf specialist says on Thursday
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| 4th Oct 2010 8:58 pm |
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PaulP
Member Since: 04 May 2007
Location: Barcelona
Posts: 4317
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It seems quite hard to agree on symptoms.....
Whilst mine doesn't seem to be affected at all at motorway speeds in 5th/6th gears, it can be provoked by giving it "a good boot" in 2nd/3rd (and maybe 4th??) gears and holding the power on. During this time I can get the revs to rise fall ±500rpm at will by feathering the throttle, but the D3 will keep accelerating. It behaves EXACTLY as a manual gearbox would with a slipping clutch.
I don't notice any "fluttering" in the revs whilst holding a steady speed, but in any gear, the revs will drop 300-600rpm if I take my foot off the accelerator. Pretty much the same as it will do when cold and the lock-up is disabled until the oil heats up enough.
I still don't understand how changing the ATF can improve the symptoms for a short period of time - if the clutch plates are worn, and assuming that they are mechanical parts, then how could new oil temporarily fix it?
amondeggs - when you say that your revs rise and fall, is this with a constant throttle input, or can you provoke it?
Just to repeat, I don't think I notice ANY FORM of juddering at all......just a slipping under power.
Cheers,
Paul 2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE Auto Buckingham Blue
2007 Golf GT DSG
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| 4th Oct 2010 10:17 pm |
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