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PaulP
Member Since: 04 May 2007
Location: Barcelona
Posts: 4317
  
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  That's not funny....
I hope I'm not in the same boat as I would be furious...when do you hope to have the D3 back?
How did they check for oil in the ATF? I still have my old ATF from 6 months ago (couldn't be arsed to take it for "recycling" yet). I wonder if I could check for water in it? Does the water rise to the top when left standing?
Also - why would water contamination mean a new torque convertor is needed? Couldn't it just be cleaned up as part of the gearbox refurb?
Steve - I've been checking my faultcodes every couple of weeks and I can confirm that I have not got one single DTC stored in the TCM (actually I had a Uxxxx communications DTC 6 months ago, but it hasn't returned since clearing)....and it still slips like a good'un in 2nd/3rd gear when under load and with a medium/heavy right foot. 2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE Auto Buckingham Blue
2007 Golf GT DSG
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 13th Oct 2010 12:18 pm |
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MRWOO
Member Since: 26 Jun 2010
Location: Cheshire
Posts: 193
  
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amondeggs wrote:Right I have more info !
The gearbox specialist have pulled my car apart  and tested the fluid in the transmission. Remember this fluid was put in when I had the megaflush by 4tech about 2 weeks ago. They have found the fluid to be water contaminated due to the radiator leaking ATF into the water
The specialist that I am using has had a number of these now jaguars and landrovers are getting to around 5 -6 years old. I thinks we may see more and more of them on the forum.
This means that I need new torque convertor, gearbox rebuild and new rad (or new separate rad) new oil etc etc.. Will cost around £2200 plus Vat. There is no damage to ecu or else it would be more.
Will keep you posted on progress NOT A HAPPY BUNNY
I was going to have my box auto flushed by them until I realised they used Petro Canada Dexron VI, would never put Dexron VI in our boxes. I changed what I could with the genuine Shell stuff M175.4. I did 2 weeks of research on this speaking to ZF Transmissions, PetroCanada, Opie Oils etc and I couldn't find anything to convince me that Dexron VI met the TE-ML11 / M175.4 spec for the ZF HP26 box. Sorry to digress and I'm sure this is not related to the water ingress  (but then again seals) 1964 Series IIA SWB Truck Cab - gone
1981 Series III SWB Hardtop - gone
1982 Series III SWB Hardtop - gone
1997 300Tdi Defender 90 Hardtop - gone
1983 Series III SWB Station Wagon - gone
1979 Series III SWB Station Wagon - gone
2007 90 CSW - gone
2010 USW XS - gone
2006 Disco3 - awesome & gone!
1959 Series II Truck Cab
1984 Series 3 88" CSW
2004 Defender 90 CSW
2016 Disco 4 Landmark
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| 13th Oct 2010 12:28 pm |
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DiscoDunc
Member Since: 08 May 2006
Location: Bristol
Posts: 16390
 
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So, is a simple change of radiator a reasonable preventative maintenance job on older vehicles ??, or is there more to it to prevent the water ingress problem ?
its an expensive job labourwise to remove and replace the rad. It took me 6 hours to remove and refit rad and Intercooler a couple of years ago. Duncan
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If I'd known I was going to be so thirsty this morning I'd have drunk more beer last night.
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D4 HSE MY13 SOLD
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| 13th Oct 2010 12:34 pm |
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stapldm
Member Since: 11 Sep 2006
Location: Swine Town
Posts: 2330
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Very sorry to hear that Amondeggs, not the worlds best outcome. Looks like SteveNorman was right on the money.
Of course, in a water cooling system that has 10+year life expectancy against corrosion by use of special inhibitors, I'd like to know how the side cooler failed and let water into the ATF in the first place. Bad soldering perhaps?
A quick google of atf heat exchanger leaks has shown that the radiator side tank cooler is a)common and b) obviously paid for in subsidies from Auto box manufacturers as it kills so many.
This google search is interesting; separate exchangers are available to those that can find room in front of their radiators. I foresee the crusade to abandon the radiator ATF cooler may be about to begin in earnest....
automatic transmission oil cooler kits
No affiliation, but the first one in my search was a universal one from demon tweaks for under £150...small price to pay? Dr. Ian Malcolm:
"Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should."
Transgenic tomato anyone?
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| 13th Oct 2010 1:03 pm |
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amondeggs
Member Since: 03 Sep 2009
Location: Telford
Posts: 155
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HI all,
The torque convertor had been too badly damaged as I had continued to use the car while having the vibrations. Bear in mind this included towing my twin axle tin tent.!
They have specialist equipment that chemically tests the water for glycol (antifreze) in the atf. What ever test they do if the ATF changes to a purple colour within 45 min then it is contaminated.
I have spoken to them and they are going to try to fit an auxilary cooler for the atf that is seperate to the main rad. At least this means that this should not happen again
It has been a difficult decision : have the work done or not? But I like the car a invested a lot into it getting other problems sorted so I have bitten the bullet and told them to get on with the work. I should get car back on MOn Tues next week. I will have awarranty on all work done for 1 year.
Oh yes they have tested the ECU in the gearbox and there are no issue there so it should not need changing.
Keep you all posted
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| 13th Oct 2010 1:07 pm |
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lee157
Member Since: 01 Oct 2008
Location: in the middle
Posts: 557
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Sorry lads i put a post up but found out i was talking  . 
But don't forget the heat from the engine also helps warm up the transmission fluid quicker in cold weather!
Lee
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| 13th Oct 2010 4:10 pm |
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stapldm
Member Since: 11 Sep 2006
Location: Swine Town
Posts: 2330
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lee157, I feel your pain  it's no coincidence that my own backspace key is one of the most worn on my own keyboard. As to the warming effect, I agree, but then we're left with a balancing act (isn't everything?) between:
£150 and longer warm up time meaning 6th gear unavailable for longer (which makes little difference to me as I'm a permanent Sports mode user for fuel economy reasons)
vs
£2200 plus Vat rebuild of the tranny + possibly weeks without the car whilst the experts are paid to guess what's wrong with it.
I have to say I'm currently leaning towards the preventive £150 (+ fitting + the extra litre or two of oil needed to fill it) and a long trouble free relationship with the gearbox.
Reading more web sites about the issue, they all say that the biggest killer of the box is heat (closely followed by wrong oil type), and as the radiator side tank heat exchanger at an impossible 100% efficiency can "cool" the fluid down to just above normal engine coolant temperature, it doesn't need much extra heat in the fluid to reach temperatures at which the oil starts to cook. According to many sites, the side tank cooler is hideously inefficient. One site claimed that a 30 degree raise in temperature above the water cooled level could halve the life of the ATF, bringing overheating, slipping and warping of internal tranny components. They also claimed that an average side tank heat exchanger could only drop the ATF temp by around 20 degrees due to massive inefficiencies.
Those numbers are unverified and are probably just scaremongering to drive sales, but it makes sense that there's an element of truth there, and that if the exchanger really is that inefficient then there's a serious risk of the oil temps just rising and rising under the heavy loads that some of us place on the car.
Can any of the various diagnostics kits give an ATF temperature read out whilst on the move?
I'd be seriously interested in some real comparative temperature data from someone's car whilst a) towing and b) off-roading compared to the temps experienced by the average motorway cruiser. It's not that I don't trust the web for real data but I do prefer to make my own mind up. OK, it is exactly that, I don't believe that the web is gospel and prefer to make my mind up from trusted data sources. Dr. Ian Malcolm:
"Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should."
Transgenic tomato anyone?
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| 14th Oct 2010 10:21 am |
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PaulP
Member Since: 04 May 2007
Location: Barcelona
Posts: 4317
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I think it's quite clear from my symptoms that I don't have the exact same problem as the others....in my case the slipping is noticeable during 2nd/3rd gears under load (i.e. medium accleration up a hill).
I don't have any juddering at all in any gear and no fluttering of the revs at a constant speed/load.
What I do also have is when taking my foot off (in any gear), the revs will drop 300-400rpm and stay there....when I put my foot down gently, they shoot back up to the "lock-up" revs where the engine and road speeds match for the given gear. If I then remove my foot again, the revs drop down a few hundred rpm. No-one else seems to have this problem from what I can see.
Based upon this and the fact that upon changing the ATF the problem is cured for a week or two before starting again, I'm starting to think that water ingress into the ATF is a distinct possibility.
When I put in fresh ATF, it has a very low water/contamination level and the transmission works great. After 'x' kms enough water gets into the ATF to cause this problem...
I'm hoping that, as I don't have juddering, then the torque convertor etc isn't actually failing. I'm considering another drain/fill to see if the problem is fixed (and therefore the clutch plates are not knackered) and then replacing the radiator completely for a new one.
Does anyone know how much a radiator costs and how easy it is to change? From what I can see it's a few hours work with basic tools, but nothing too serious.
Obviously it would need new ATF and coolant, but is there anything else to consider?
Cheers,
Paul 2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE Auto Buckingham Blue
2007 Golf GT DSG
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| 14th Oct 2010 10:32 am |
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lee157
Member Since: 01 Oct 2008
Location: in the middle
Posts: 557
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PaulP wrote:I think it's quite clear from my symptoms that I don't have the exact same problem as the others....in my case the slipping is noticeable during 2nd/3rd gears under load (i.e. medium accleration up a hill).
What I do also have is when taking my foot off (in any gear), the revs will drop 300-400rpm and stay there....when I put my foot down gently, they shoot back up to the "lock-up" revs where the engine and road speeds match for the given gear. If I then remove my foot again, the revs drop down a few hundred rpm. No-one else seems to have this problem.
Paul
My D3 does exactly the same as you describe and has done from when I owned it @42k, I always thought this as normal so you had the torque on tap at lower speed in 2nd and 3rd and classed this as partial lockup, as my speed increases it will finally lock up and then only drop a few hundred revs when lifting off, this happens in normal, sport and command shift.
I wouldn't want to be towing and get to a junction in 2nd in command shift and find I have no power what so ever and then have to drop it down a gear to pull away.
I'm by all means no expert on this but I do have a feeling that the full lock up maybe speed dependant too.
Lee
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| 14th Oct 2010 11:23 am |
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PaulP
Member Since: 04 May 2007
Location: Barcelona
Posts: 4317
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Mine never did this before the end of last year 
I'm sure I read somewhere once that the lock-up was speed dependant, but I can't find it anywhere now.
Can anyone else reading this thread (who doesn't have problems with their autobox), please confirm if the engine revs stay constant if you lift your foot off the accelerator? As in, for instance, taking your foot off to coast to a roundabout, and then accelerating again onto the roundabout. 2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE Auto Buckingham Blue
2007 Golf GT DSG
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| 14th Oct 2010 12:11 pm |
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hensoni
Member Since: 01 Oct 2007
Location: Sleepy Somerset
Posts: 576
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Steve,
Are you able to check the state of my lock-up clutch when performing the double flush and filter replacement on mine next month? Checking for water contamination sounds like a good idea too. Back in the day, I was investigating the purchase of a pre-2003 Toymotor LC and this problem appears to be their "signature failure."
If it needs another hour or so of investigation, then so be it - as long as there is plenty of photographic evidence!
Mine is under extended warranty until the end of Dec so I'd prefer to find out this side of Christmas  .
Ian H Club missing my D3
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| 14th Oct 2010 12:31 pm |
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SteveNorman
Member Since: 14 Oct 2005
Location: Somerset
Posts: 1146
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Ian, no problem.
For my own interest I'll look at the live data while driving & see if we can determine when exactly the lock up clutch comes into action on gear changes, & post what I find.
I assume, that, as with normal operation, the lock up clutch is disabled when changing gear & acceleration & then goes to partial/full lock up as the engine/turbine input speeds get closer to matched.
When the clutch is locked up, there is in effect a direct drive between engine & box, to help with fuel economy & lessen oil heat up. When the clutch is released, normal slip is allowed via the torque converter, thus if you press your foot down hard the revs will rise, but road speed will not, until the two halves of the torque converter catch up. There are loads of other strategies which the tcm employs, for example, knowing when you are cornering & holding on to gears instead of kickdown, it can also notice if you lift off very quickly & stay in the correct gear, instead of changing up like old boxes used to.
PaulP, Your problem seems different to the 'normal'  judder of the lockup clutch. I would have thought that if you had excessive 'slip' then the tcm would store a slip fault code, as the input/output speeds would be different to what it's expecting.... but as you say, something has changed since last year.
As for water contamination, apparently it's difficult to tell water contamination unless you test it with a test kit, which I have coming. Talking to trans specialist again today, & seems like he now tests every box before going any further, as he see's lots with antifreeze contamination, mostly Jag's.
HTH
Steve
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| 14th Oct 2010 1:23 pm |
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amondeggs
Member Since: 03 Sep 2009
Location: Telford
Posts: 155
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Quote:As for water contamination, apparently it's difficult to tell water contamination unless you test it with a test kit, which I have coming. Talking to trans specialist again today, & seems like he now tests every box before going any further, as he see's lots with antifreeze contamination, mostly Jag's.
The specialist that has my car has also said this about Jags. This is why he tests the fluid now before doing anything else. I could have just replaced the torque convertor as it was this that caused the juddering and all ould have appeared fine. But soon the water would have done its damage again. I am still hoping that they are able to fit an auxilary cooler for the atf so that I will (should) not have this problem again.
Looking forward to getting my car back, the renault laguna loan car just does not cut it
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| 15th Oct 2010 3:34 pm |
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PaulP
Member Since: 04 May 2007
Location: Barcelona
Posts: 4317
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Steve - how many have you seen with this radiator/ATF cooler problem?
I double checked my D3 last night and can confirm 100% that there are no DTCs stored at all for the TCM.
Does anyone know the approximate cost of the radiator and how long it would take to change it? Looking at GTR I couldn't see the need for any special tools, but can anyone confirm this?
Could it be done without the use of a pit or a car lift?
Cheers,
Paul 2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE Auto Buckingham Blue
2007 Golf GT DSG
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| 15th Oct 2010 3:45 pm |
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anglefire
Member Since: 09 Mar 2010
Location: In the Club House
Posts: 4180
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PaulP wrote:Mine never did this before the end of last year
I'm sure I read somewhere once that the lock-up was speed dependant, but I can't find it anywhere now.
Can anyone else reading this thread (who doesn't have problems with their autobox), please confirm if the engine revs stay constant if you lift your foot off the accelerator? As in, for instance, taking your foot off to coast to a roundabout, and then accelerating again onto the roundabout.
Mine does this - ha done since I had it - it did get worse at one time (Went pretty much to tickover)- and the dealer either reset the gearbox adaptive setting or downloaded the ECU program - didn't say - but since then it has dropped to about 1500rpm, if it was around 2000rpm ish but not always.
I'll keep an eye on it and try and make a mental note Mark.
2006, D3 SE Auto - gone but not forgotten.
2014 BMW 530d M Sport Tourer.
1977 Triumph Spitfire 1500
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| 15th Oct 2010 6:02 pm |
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