Member Since: 18 Jul 2011
Location: Stockport
Posts: 7830
CG wrote:
1/Was the bolt plated (shiny chrome look) if so it could be hydrogen embitterment
If it looks like silver paint, then that,s not the case.
I think you refer to hydrogen enbrittlement CG.
I have had professional experience of this in conjunction with titanium pins but not with steel, however it is fully documented in HT steels.
Basically what happens is hydrogen molecules are forced into the material which allow cracks to propagate at the manufacturing stage. Measures are taken to avoid enbrittlement but it still occurs. You don't know it's there until you load the pin and then start to fatigue it. It usually lets go with a bang too and almost always ends with the pin shearing off.
Good luck with it Matty.
6th Mar 2012 9:31 pm
character
Member Since: 31 Dec 2007
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781
re-reading yer first post again, I would say that having had the kit arrive minus the bolt, it might be a fairly safe bet that you've been given any old bolts of a similar size off the parts shelf rather than those that come with the kit.
In your circumstances, I would order up a new fitting kit from TLO (ensuring it comes in a sealed bag with the LR part no on it as it will do) and one other from another random LR dealer (again in the original LR sealed bag with part no on it) for the purpose of testing the bolts against what you have which any metallurgist would want anyway.
Make sure you take a photo or best of all a video of you opening the sealed envelope when the parcel arrives and picking out its contents. Keep all the envelopes etc to show the courts, if it got to it.
If it could be proved "to a reasonable degree" ie more than 51% probability that the bolts you have do not match up to the original OEM kit, then your fight for compensation/new engine would be proved.
If of course it turns out that they are all the same, then a) it might prove that all such bolts are defective or b) its the matter of the torque wrench itself which sadly would be down to you
7th Mar 2012 1:11 am
zarnd
Member Since: 23 Apr 2010
Location: Kent
Posts: 794
Have you got any proof that the kit was sent without the bolt? Get the car to a dealer as if they are genuine parts then you will have a warranty on them regardless of who fitted them as the parts are warranted themselves. Have you still got the invoice from when you bought the genuine cambelt kit? If I were you don't take anything else apart and get it to a dealer for them to look at as they will do the work and invoice land rover. You won't be given a Cheque to cover the cost of a new engine, the dealer will do it. Definitely lworth a shot in my opinion, but you may have to agree to initial investigation costs and costs for removing heads etc...so that it can be determined what damage has happened. Have you spoken to a dealer to see what they woul normally do?
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You would hope so or it would only be a claim for a couple of quid for a bolt!Joined the BMWX5 45e group
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7th Mar 2012 7:06 am
Martin Site Admin and Owner
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From the photos and description, it appears the the thread cutting/forming introduced a stress concentration at the top thread.
The chewed up bit is where the crack started, the grainy uniform surface is where it let go.
Can you get some macro photos of the failure surface?06 D3 SE / 15 LR D90 XS SW / 88 LR 90 Td5 / 68 BMW 2000 ti
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7th Mar 2012 9:43 am
Matty 2332
Member Since: 02 Dec 2008
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 670
Many thanks for the positive replies, as soon as I get the bits back I will take some better photos. Had a call back from local dealer and there not interested Which at this early stage doesn't come as a surprise. From what I have seen and read it looks very much like what was described earlier - Hydrogen embrittlement failure. I will need a proper report on this. My worry is though that as I did the change myself, despite the fact I followed the book to the letter, i am not a mechanic. Could they wiggle out of it that way?. If I can prove the bolt was defective though, the same would have happened whether it was a skilled mechanic or not. Also now considering getting a full AA report etc. worrying times
7th Mar 2012 10:00 am
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7th Mar 2012 10:15 am
zarnd
Member Since: 23 Apr 2010
Location: Kent
Posts: 794
Consequential damage should be covered. Speak to LR customer care to see what they want you to do. As far as I am concerned, Land Rover would have to have concrete evidence that you did something wrong rather than the part failed for them to not sort it out. If you are going to go down the road of trying for a parts warranty claim then do not get anyone else to do anything to the vehicle as that will wipe out any hope.
No help more than whats has already been said but gutted for you bud and I hope you get it sortedDon’t worry it is supposed to sound like that...honest
7th Mar 2012 5:50 pm
Disco_Mikey
Member Since: 29 May 2007
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Posts: 20841
Dave T wrote:
You would hope so or it would only be a claim for a couple of quid for a bolt!
I would have thought so too. I only ask as we fitted a clutch to a D3 that lasted 4k miles, and killed the flywheel (which wasnt changed with the clutch). LR approved a warranty claim on the clutch, but would cover the flywheel...
I know its not exactly the same as a cambelt failure, but was just curious as to how it workedMy D3 Build Thread
Member Since: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Cambs
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Hi Matty,
sorry to see you have this failure.
I've experienced bolt failure due to hydrogen embrittlement on industrial products and the photos of the bolt appear similar to failures I seen before with High tensile bolts that have been plated. A crystalline appearance at the break is a good indication!
Many electroplaters and surface treatment companies now have disclaimers regarding hydrogen embrittlement. It can be overcome to some degree with adequate post plating heat treatment, but electroplating of high tensile bolts (grades 8.8, 10.9 and 12.9) should be avoided if possible.
The failure point at the end of the thread is the weakest point of the bolt, i.e. smallest cross section and change in shape causing stress raiser. The original bolt looks to have a reduced shank diameter, this would help reduce shock loading in the bolt by allowing some extension under load.
It would appear the failed bolt is a substitute for the original, and therefore I would pursue with the supplier (and Land Rover, if it was supplied in a LR bag) that it was not fit for purpose.
1/Was the bolt plated (shiny chrome look) if so it could be hydrogen embitterment
If it looks like silver paint, then that,s not the case.
I think you refer to hydrogen enbrittlement CG. .
Yes embrittlement Embrittled parts usually fail when in use under stresses well below their normal failure level and most embrittlement failures occur in a relatively short time after assembly, between a few minutes and up to eight weeks.
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have you a picture of the top of the head, I'm interested to see who made the bolt.
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7th Mar 2012 7:22 pm
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Which at this early stage doesn't come as a surprise. From what I have seen and read it looks very much like what was described earlier - Hydrogen embrittlement failure. I will need a proper report on this. My worry is though that as I did the change myself, despite the fact I followed the book to the letter, i am not a mechanic. Could they wiggle out of it that way?. If I can prove the bolt was defective though, the same would have happened whether it was a skilled mechanic or not. Also now considering getting a full AA report etc. worrying times 
No help more than whats has already been said but gutted for you bud and I hope you get it sorted
Embrittled parts usually fail when in use under stresses well below their normal failure level and most embrittlement failures occur in a relatively short time after assembly, between a few minutes and up to eight weeks.
