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RRSTDV8
Member Since: 07 Apr 2014
Location: Here
Posts: 13553
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HWN wrote:Rogb wrote:Its my opinion and so long as i dont step over the line with voicing my opinion then whats the problem, but unfortunately that ethos only seems to work one way.
There are some 'holy cow' subjects where it is almost heretical to disagree. If I cannot say to someone that I think they are wrong [on any subject] then that person and I are not equal, surely?
I've said it before and I'm going to say it again: social-media makes it possible for people to exist in an online bubble where they only ever view opinions aligning with their own interests. Bots, algorithms and other beasties only ever recommend to people the content they think will be of interest (driving click-throughs and advertising revenue) which is a positive feedback loop. When people only ever see opinions that reflect their own views, it only convinces them further that they are right and people who don't have the same views are, therefore, wrong = heresy. Where I can, I actively seek out views that might be different to mine, even though it makes me  angry at times. Off-platforming, cancel-culture and the rest are just ways of avoiding having to deal with the fact that other people have different views. Where is the respect there?
Is identity politics filling an ideological void left by the collapse of religion? Maybe. They certainly have things in common.
Having your own opinions means respecting the opinions of others. Imposition of unassailable "truths" is actually quite worrying. Not far from here is a café that advertises "free speech available here" - you can discuss anything over a cup of tea if you wish. Healthy debate with a referee and biscuits - what's not to like?!
Equal rights not special rights?
I broadly agree, Hugh. Of especial concern is social media. As you say, it actively helps people to self-reinforce their world view, be that new age or old fashioned. That's one of the things I like about this forum - we are a disparate group with a range of views and we can, mostly, discuss them with each other in a grown up manner. Occasionally we get a slap from on high, but mostly we trundle along well.
A trip on to Twitter, for example, picking at random a person in the media, be it a Piers Morgan or a Jane Fonda (picking two people at opposite sides of the right/left divide) highlights how self reinforcing it is. The followers of either will tend to follow the tweets and retweets at the expense of other views. The extreme example is Trump and his followers - some of whom seem to consider him to be a messenger from God. Quite frightening and the world saw the result of that feedback loop. Visiting from rrsport.co.uk
2012 RRS SDV6
2008 RRS TDV8
"When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die! You don't know who's children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they were always going to have to do from the very beginning: SIT DOWN AND TALK!"
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 21st May 2021 9:15 am |
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RRSTDV8
Member Since: 07 Apr 2014
Location: Here
Posts: 13553
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NoDo$h wrote:Well that's *one* opinion 
Yes it is.
Happy to hear someone explain how freedom of speech doesn't come with responsibility.  Visiting from rrsport.co.uk
2012 RRS SDV6
2008 RRS TDV8
"When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die! You don't know who's children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they were always going to have to do from the very beginning: SIT DOWN AND TALK!"
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| 21st May 2021 9:17 am |
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RogB
Member Since: 15 Jun 2018
Location: Mansfield
Posts: 1730
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unfortunately we are no longer 'allowed' to take responsibility for our own actions and must instead wait to be told what we are allowed to do.
Happens in my workplace all the time, everything has to be down in black and white, step by step, so that no mistakes are made. But how do people learn if they dont make mistakes from which to learn ?
so now we are in the position of being told that we must agree with and accept another persons outlook on something and if we dont then we are wrong and must be punished.
On the whole its not individuals who dictate this, most are happy to share opinions, discuss, accept and respect that other people may not agree with them. It seems the norm to be offended on behalf on someone else and for that 3rd party to escalate and enforce a ruling. Personally id like to give some of those individuals or establishments or 3rd parties a hypothetical slap round the back of head and an attitude readjustment. But thats just me 
Im happy to live and work alongside anyone, if they can fit in or can do the job and we can all enjoy each others company then thats good enough for me. Just dont demand i agree with differing opinions. 2011 D4 XS 305 MY12 - gone but not forgotten
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| 21st May 2021 9:39 am |
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NoDo$h
Member Since: 02 May 2006
Location: Finding new and exciting ways to milk badgers.
Posts: 19689
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RRSTDV8 wrote:NoDo$h wrote:Well that's *one* opinion
Yes it is.
Happy to hear someone explain how freedom of speech doesn't come with responsibility.
You'll find me 100% in agreement with you - actions have consequences.
Unfortunately it's an unpopular view, often downgraded to being an "opinion", and as we all know, everyone is *entitled* to an opinion. The value ascribed to said opinion is usually in directly inverse proportion to the intellect of the person offering it.
Or to put it another way, don't you be coming in here with your facts, logic and reason; I've got an ill-informed world view to protect! I know it's not considered "kind" to say no these days, but no. Just no, ok? And if it's not ok, still no.
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| 21st May 2021 11:33 am |
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Moo
D3 Decade
Member Since: 13 Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 14414
 
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The problem is these issues cause more problems than they solve and rather than support tolerance, and understanding just cause even more polarised opinions.
Now incase anyone wonder, I'm 54, I identify as a male and know I can't have children for two reasons:
1. I don't have a womb, ovaries or vagina. I know this because I have been scanned and they didn't appear on the screen or doctors report.
2. I've been neutered.
However, if you want to identify as a male and believe you can have children biologically that's fine with me and I will happily fight and support your right to that view as I hope you will fight and respect mine. However, I won't do it at the exclusion and removal of free speech, debate and having an opinion that might not be the same as yours. D4 HSE EU6 (Known as Jeeves)
New Defender L663 110 SE (known as Noddy!) Sold
Sold Volvo XC90 R-Design (known as Basil)
Sold - D4 HSE (Known as Gerty)
No longer the Old Buses original owner 
231,000 miles and counting
05 S manual owned from March 2005
D4 Face lifted
Still original injectors and turbo
V8 Front brakes
BAS Remap, Allisport Intercooler and deCat
EGRs blanked
T-Max split charge
Hanibal Expeedition rack
Prospeed ladder
Duratrac tyres
IID BT
BAS FBH control
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| 21st May 2021 1:19 pm |
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john watson
Member Since: 10 Nov 2011
Location: lanark
Posts: 970
 
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Does history teach anything. In ancient Egypt with one of the oldest writing systems in the world in their grammar there were only two states. Everything was either male or female. Although their treatment of pronouns was very flexible but still male or female. Maybe it was because their counting system was to the base 10 not 8. French is identical wonder how they will sort out their pronouns? We live in strange times. Once you have defeated the idiots any job is half done. Pity there are so many idiots to defeat.
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| 21st May 2021 1:39 pm |
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Moo
D3 Decade
Member Since: 13 Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 14414
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I wouldn't be seen dead with them. I'm part of the Peoples Front of Judaea  D4 HSE EU6 (Known as Jeeves)
New Defender L663 110 SE (known as Noddy!) Sold
Sold Volvo XC90 R-Design (known as Basil)
Sold - D4 HSE (Known as Gerty)
No longer the Old Buses original owner
231,000 miles and counting
05 S manual owned from March 2005
D4 Face lifted
Still original injectors and turbo
V8 Front brakes
BAS Remap, Allisport Intercooler and deCat
EGRs blanked
T-Max split charge
Hanibal Expeedition rack
Prospeed ladder
Duratrac tyres
IID BT
BAS FBH control
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| 21st May 2021 1:50 pm |
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john watson
Member Since: 10 Nov 2011
Location: lanark
Posts: 970
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Exactly. “ what did the Romans do for us” as I said previously we live in strange times. Once you have defeated the idiots any job is half done. Pity there are so many idiots to defeat.
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| 21st May 2021 1:53 pm |
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Moo
D3 Decade
Member Since: 13 Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 14414
|
D4 HSE EU6 (Known as Jeeves)
New Defender L663 110 SE (known as Noddy!) Sold
Sold Volvo XC90 R-Design (known as Basil)
Sold - D4 HSE (Known as Gerty)
No longer the Old Buses original owner
231,000 miles and counting
05 S manual owned from March 2005
D4 Face lifted
Still original injectors and turbo
V8 Front brakes
BAS Remap, Allisport Intercooler and deCat
EGRs blanked
T-Max split charge
Hanibal Expeedition rack
Prospeed ladder
Duratrac tyres
IID BT
BAS FBH control
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| 21st May 2021 2:18 pm |
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RRSTDV8
Member Since: 07 Apr 2014
Location: Here
Posts: 13553
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john watson wrote:Does history teach anything. In ancient Egypt with one of the oldest writing systems in the world in their grammar there were only two states. Everything was either male or female. Although their treatment of pronouns was very flexible but still male or female. Maybe it was because their counting system was to the base 10 not 8. French is identical wonder how they will sort out their pronouns? We live in strange times.
Interesting to see the ancient Egyptians cited as arbiters of a current conundrum.
Same-sex relationships weren't unknow even in Ancient Egypt.
http://www.egyptology.com/niankhkhnum_khnumhotep/dallas.html
There is also evidence that at times bestiality was practiced by Egyptians. And they certainly practiced incest. Visiting from rrsport.co.uk
2012 RRS SDV6
2008 RRS TDV8
"When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die! You don't know who's children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they were always going to have to do from the very beginning: SIT DOWN AND TALK!"
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| 21st May 2021 2:18 pm |
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john watson
Member Since: 10 Nov 2011
Location: lanark
Posts: 970
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It’s irrelevant what sexual preferences the ancient Egyptians chose to practice but in their writing you only had male or female. Wonder why was that? Maybe at bit to complicated for the written language to have full involvement of expression for every form of preference that happened to flavour of the here and now at the time. Bit difficult when you never wrote the vowels! Once you have defeated the idiots any job is half done. Pity there are so many idiots to defeat.
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| 21st May 2021 2:38 pm |
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RRSTDV8
Member Since: 07 Apr 2014
Location: Here
Posts: 13553
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The point was that they had different ideas about the world and how things worked. To cite a group of people that lived several thousand years ago as the evidence for what we should do / think today seems a bit odd to me, that's all. But if it works for you.  Visiting from rrsport.co.uk
2012 RRS SDV6
2008 RRS TDV8
"When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die! You don't know who's children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they were always going to have to do from the very beginning: SIT DOWN AND TALK!"
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| 21st May 2021 2:54 pm |
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RRSTDV8
Member Since: 07 Apr 2014
Location: Here
Posts: 13553
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I think there is an issue with how we "normal" people understand those who are looking for an identity that doesn't fit our traditional view.
The non-binary thing isn't about saying that the person isn't a man or a woman so much as saying that they're not, in their own mind and emotions, one or the other.
Traditionally there was "man" and "woman". That worked ok because that's all that anyone was allowed to be. If you broke the mould, as laid down by religions various, you were in for a very bad experience. Were there gay and lesbian people? Yes, of course, but they weren't allowed to wander around proclaiming it. Then western society changed (other societies certainly haven't done so). Eventually, homosexuality was formally recognised and legalised. So gay and lesbian folk could proclaim themselves accordingly. But there are others, in decreasing numbers (assuming this is a typical bell curve type spread from "the normal") who don't feel that they fit in to the simple boxes of "man", "woman", "straight", "gay", "lesbian". Those who are transgender, for example, will fit in various of those categories at some point. We also have people who aren't straight or gay/lesbian but are bisexual. And then there are those who recognise that the term bisexual is a link back to the "old way" and so call themselves pansexual - they fancy everyone no matter what they might be identified as. And the asexual who just aren't interested in anyone.
This is a natural progression of self identity that is allowed really only because we in the west don't have to worry about the basics of staying alive and feeding ourselves/families. That and the relaxation of the control that religion has in most people's lives.
I think, from comments various, that most of us don't have a problem with that. The problem, for many, is that one is not allowed to question this state of change. That's unfortunate, but I think it stems as much from the increasingly risk averse nature of those in the public eye, be that politicians or company administrators. There is a fear that legal action will be taken and costs incurred. So the system is effectively bullied in to being quiet.
Here's a thought. The traditional view is that men love women and vice versa and that's all good. Anything else is "not normal". But how many of us have been to funerals for friends and cried? Men crying for men. Now we say "he was my best friend", "I loved him like a brother", etc. But is that love for a male friend any more or less real than the love for a wife or girlfriend? And is it any different from a man's love for another man in the way we would term as gay? It's all a deep emotional attraction. Sure, there isn't a sexual element to that love, but then there isn't a sexual element to the love we feel for female friends. It's all just an emotional link.
We're all different, our brains all work subtly differently (some more so than others!). How do we define what is normal when we exist as a continuum of differences?
I need a beer.  Visiting from rrsport.co.uk
2012 RRS SDV6
2008 RRS TDV8
"When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die! You don't know who's children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they were always going to have to do from the very beginning: SIT DOWN AND TALK!"
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| 21st May 2021 3:20 pm |
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