Member Since: 10 Aug 2016
Location: Dorset
Posts: 90
Wow 40! Well done Andy .
11th Jan 2020 10:31 am
ronp
Member Since: 29 Nov 2006
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 15263
Would be interesting if you reported (& sent pic) of this mass collection of failed crankshafts to LR, just to see what excuse they came up with... "Oh, they all do that, Sir"...... always on the road less travelled 🚧
11th Jan 2020 10:33 am
knwatkins
Member Since: 19 Sep 2018
Location: Poole, Dorset
Posts: 716
41, here's mine...
Click image to enlarge
I'm going to make something from it at some point.
Congrats Andy!Kev
MY2014 L405 RR Vogue SE 4.4 SDV8 in Corris Grey
MY2010 L320 RRS HSE 3.0 TDV6 in Stornoway Grey
11th Jan 2020 10:35 am
DG Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50978
So is it 15 or 40? Confused.com 21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
11th Jan 2020 10:49 am
knwatkins
Member Since: 19 Sep 2018
Location: Poole, Dorset
Posts: 716
15 snapped. 25 not re-useable = 40 totalKev
MY2014 L405 RR Vogue SE 4.4 SDV8 in Corris Grey
MY2010 L320 RRS HSE 3.0 TDV6 in Stornoway Grey
Last edited by knwatkins on 11th Jan 2020 10:55 am. Edited 1 time in total
11th Jan 2020 10:52 am
DSL Keeper of the wheelie bin
Member Since: 11 May 2006
Location: Off again! :-)
Posts: 73066
Getting close to my 65.
11th Jan 2020 10:54 am
OvalAutos
Member Since: 28 Dec 2018
Location: Cradley Heath
Posts: 382
15 snapped + 25 scraped = 40 cranks we rejected. Is it really that bad?
First off, I’m not going to say how many engines we’ve remanufactured in 2019 (Sorry Gary_P). NOTE: We also fit LR recon and 2nd hand customer supplied engines, so I’m not including these. Anybody who’s been here will know our yard is always full and the lead time is between 4-5 weeks As KevW has mentioned, we do specialise in engines, but also do quite a bit of regular service/repair work. So the number of engines we do is not reflective in the general service sector or engine shops. Don’t forgot that we also do other LR engines besides the 3.0 TDV6. However, we stopped doing 2.7s engines in 2018 as the cost is usually more than the value of the car. It’s a sad fact of life that anything LR/RR is expensive, except the value of the car itself and I can’t justify presenting an invoice for an engine on a car worth less!
The question I get asked the most and see more often on the forums is “Why are there so many TDV6 failures?”. The short answer is there aren’t as many as you think. Disco_Mikey didn’t even have a single enquiry about a 3.0 failure last year and I don’t think he sits around with little work! With the inside knowledge I have and using a little bit of of common sense, it’s not hard to figure out that the number of engine failures (yes, mostly cranks) is within the limits that JLR will accept. Here’s a response to this question I sent recently and pretty much sums it all up.
Hi Michael,
The problem is not as widespread as you may think. All vehicle manufacturers allow for an acceptable percentage of failures during 2 stages of the vehicle life; Under warranty and after warranty. They also take in to account the negative PR in both stages. This is not just relevant to the engine.
When the TDV6 was developed in the early 2000s', it's life expectancy was 150k or 10yrs. During this time the number (percentage) of failures expected was set to an acceptable level. As the current incarnation of the engine is still basically the same with minor modifications to accommodate stricter emission rules, the number of failures is still within the limits.
While it is possible to design/build an engine to have 99% reliability during it's planned life, the cost is prohibitive and you can't eradicate the single biggest factor in most failures (engines, gearboxes and so on) and that is human error. Poor servicing, cheap oils and not even checking oil levels. I have personally witnessed, in a big named main dealer, the engine oil drained from a car, the technician distracted and watch him then start the car before refilling it..!!! Having said that, even if you removed the human factor, things can fail.
There is no single point of failure on any engine, there are many. Every manufacturer has failures, but some have a better percentage. I've seen Rolls Royce, Ferrari, Ford, Fiat, Nissan, Audi....... all with failed engines and all within the limits set by the manufacture.
Do you really think any vehicle manufacturer would keep using an item that kept failing and going beyond the set limits? The bad PR and lack of sales would kill them off pretty quickly.
The difference here is the consumers perception that LR/RR are bulletproof, cost a fortune, is an upmarket brand and therefore should be better than the average car. Then the problem is cost; anything LR/RR is expensive and that upsets the consumer even more.
The best thing you can do to preserve your engine is regular servicing with good quality oils and hope for a decent technician.
At the end of the Day Michael, it's all down to luck
The second most common question is “Why do they fail?”. So here we’re not just talking about the crank, but anything that causes the engine to cease working. Here is a short list of things we see that happen besides snapped cranks; Snapped timing chain or belt, spun bearings, timing belt tensioner, melted pistons, overfilled with oil (hydraulic lock), big end, turbo(S), dropped valve, hole in the block and so on. As per my previous response, some can be genuine mechanical failure (bad luck, but within limits) or human stupidity (only God controls the gene pool). THIS HAPPENS TO EVERY ENGINE MANUFACTURER, not just JLR.
“What about the oil pump?” I can hear you say. Well it is certainly plausible to say that a failure of the engine can happen as a result of no oil pressure; spun bearing due to snatch, melted crank due to overheating (low pressure), thrown rod…etc…, but how do you know the pump failed? By failed are we talking no pressure, low pressure or whatever? How many people here have suspected a pump failure was the cause of the engine to do whatever, then taken that suspect pump, stripped it down, inspected it and then fitted it to another (control) engine to actually measure the pump performance? Not many I’m guessing. Like I’m guessing not many have bothered to measure the oil pressure before and after having a new pump fitted while having a belt change. We’ve done all of this and much more to find the silver bullet, but it still alludes me. I won’t go on about the oil system much more here as I’m planning to do a more comprehensive post soon. But just as a little tickle, here’s a few things that might be deemed as a failed pump, which aren’t; blocked filter, worn lifters, bearing wear, cracked oil gallery….
So why do they fail? All of the above and more is the answer.Joe
11th Jan 2020 11:48 am
ronp
Member Since: 29 Nov 2006
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 15263
Great post and thank you for sharing, has certainly put my mind to rest.
...... always on the road less travelled 🚧
11th Jan 2020 11:56 am
waterbuoy
Member Since: 26 Oct 2013
Location: Argyll
Posts: 2907
Interesting post and explanation thank you Joe
The '150k/10 year' design life is consistent with my own 2.7 TDV6 failure (180k and 8.5 years) but, as a relatively high mileage driver (30-40k per year), does give me cause for concern about the long term viability of continuing with JLR vehicles.
As my signature shows, I previously got high mileage out of our LR vehicles - all of which have been either main dealer or (more recently) DM maintained. Mike will confirm that my philosophy is 'if it needs doing then it gets done', using LR parts wherever possible. In about 50% of cases I tend to be the 'end user' (there isn't much demand for a 300Tdi D1 which has blown a piston sideways through the block ). We currently have both the D3 referred to above (now on over 230k after being re-engined by DM) and a D4 with almost 100k.
A question for Joe if I may - can you confirm if the '150k' expectation is a (relatively) standard across JLR and/or the wider industry, and are these figures (ie the design life) available for other vehicles?
Thanks in advance
WBCurrently 2009 Disco 3 SE, 2013 MY D4 HSE and 2016 D4 SE
Previously:
TD5 Defender 110 CSW (230k miles)
300TDi Disco 1 (289k)
4 RR Classics (300-350k each, 2 manual, 2 auto)
110 V8 CSW (220k)
S3 109 hi cap pickup (ex RN)
S2A 88 Safari SW with lpg conversion (bloody lethal)
11th Jan 2020 12:21 pm
DG Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50978
Thanks Oval ...I feel that vindicates my long-held, though much-derided viewpoint, which often mirrored exactly what you have said in your post. It's not pleasant to those it happens to ...but, as with every other marque, failures come with the territory of vehicle ownership and it's as simple as that.21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
11th Jan 2020 1:39 pm
Disco_Mikey
Member Since: 29 May 2007
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Posts: 20835
My Freelander 2 is on 125k. Best think about replacing it next year My D3 Build Thread
Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: South West
Posts: 23811
Joe stated that luck plays a part, which looking at the mileage post on here, it clearly does. 2006 D3 HSE (Original & still the best)-GONE
2010 D4 HSE (A bit bling)-GONE
2014 D4 HSE (Almost too bling)-GONE
2015 D4 HSE (A heated what?)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Written Off)-GONE
2016 D4 Landmark (Surely the last!) PD1881 rims-GONE
2017 FFRR SDV8 Autobiography (now semi-retired)
11th Jan 2020 3:51 pm
Pelyma
Member Since: 06 Jan 2005
Location: Patching, Sussex
Posts: 15496
Makes you wonder why Car Care Plan won’t cover them? Do we know if they cover any other manufacturers engines, or are they saying any engine that has this type of set up is a faulty design?DS3 TDV6 HSE - Silver with Alpaca (old one) Gone
DS3 TDV6 HSE- Silver with Alpaca (new one) Gone
D4 HSE Lux - Montalcino Red Gone
Porsche Cayenne V8 Diesel S
NJSSAm I Gammon or Woke ? - I neither know nor care.
2016 Discovery 4 Landmark
2011 Mercedes Benz SL350 (R230)
1973 MG B GT V8 - 3.9L John Eales engine, 5 speed R380 gearbox, since 1975.
1959 MGA roadster - 1.9L Peter Burgess Engine - 5 speed gearbox
Past LRs - Multiple FFRs, Discos & a Series I - some petrol, some diesel,
none Electric or H2 fuel cell - yet.
There are 10 types of people in this world: Those who understand binary, and those who don’t.
11th Jan 2020 4:52 pm
3disco
Member Since: 23 Sep 2010
Location: devon chardstock
Posts: 504
There was a post I read sometime ago that said that the engine I think when exported to USA had apart from other mods had an upgraded crank does this now apply to the UK?
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). We currently have both the D3 referred to above (now on over 230k after being re-engined by DM) and a D4 with almost 100k.
