Member Since: 30 Aug 2014
Location: Liskeard
Posts: 7441
@ Moo: Exactly right!
LR have completely misunderstood the market for the Discovery and decided that another minor variation on the Evoque/RRS/DS theme is all that's needed. Yes, it will sell, but it's more likely to take sales from its near clones than it is from any competitor.
On the subject of fuel consumption and emissions being a new consideration, I can't remember a time (since I started during in 1981) when it hasn't been! Considering the price of diesel in 2004 was around 84p, I'd suggest that the price has gone down in real terms and while CO2 emissions have become more of an issue, the D5 is still hopelessly above 129g, which is the only figure that really matters for new vehicles, driven for business.2011 - 2015: 3 x FL2
2015 - 2017: 2 x D4
2017 to date: FFRR SDV8
2023 to date: 2 x FL2 as “second” cars 🙄
2021 to date: Hinckley built ‘14 Triumph Trophy 1200
2022 to date: Hinckley built ‘14 Triumph Trophy 1200 & sidecar!
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10th Dec 2016 1:04 pm
neilk
Member Since: 27 Aug 2010
Location: Berkshire
Posts: 32
Not picking on anyone particular here, it just seems to be a theme.
I am not sure I get this "Land Rover has got it wrong", I understand the new one doesn't meet the requirements for a lot of people, but surely it it is more "It isn't right for me". I am on my second, and the D5 will be my third and for me it does everything I want and brings it bang up to date. I compared the Mondeo hire car I had on holiday in terms of infotainment, electronics and driver aids that I use every day it was way ahead. I am not sure LR are cannibalising too many of their own sales, and I am afraid it is just cold commercial sense for them to push this more upmarket as if you are already selling everything you can make, then making more per unit is a pretty obvious strategy.
Who knows if the new Defender plugs the gap, but in the interim I think it makes sense even if you don't agree with it. I know the "Russian Doll" styling approach is not for everyone but to be fair it has worked for Audi, BMW and I agree in the end it becomes impossible to differentiate models and too generic and the risk is high that LR are going too far that way.
I guess it is just an observation that it seems on here "one thing I don't like" translates into LR have screwed up and anyone who doesn't spend 100% of their time driving on dried up river beds towing a 3.5t trailer with two Irish Wolfhounds in the back is not quite a real man and doesn't deserve a Discovery. Great if that is what you do but I don't think me using it as my primary family vehicle makes it any less valuable or desirable for me.
10th Dec 2016 1:55 pm
RDR
Member Since: 24 Mar 2013
Location: Derbyshire
Posts: 2260
Good post and you are right. LR haven't done anything wrong really its their product not ours we didn't give the design team the problem statement they did
I think many people of many backgrounds have had the opportunity to own the same car up until now, but with the D5 we are going to see a split and thats what your picking up on the forum.
For me, I don't off road (properly) I just need space that isn't an MPV. The D5 hasn't blown me away and has lost a few things I really liked on the D4 so I'm actively looking at other makes now. In short, there is no differentiator between the D5 and its peers for me.
The D5 will make a great car for some but I was pretty miffed at the dealer event as I love the brand and the Discovery but they tried to insist through numbers and figures it was comparable to the D4 in all ways when it simply isn't in real life. That said, I may even still get one if I find no other option MY06 S - Gone but not forgotten
MY12 HSE - Gone
MY16 HSE Luxury - Sold
MY20 D5 HSE - Sold
Current RR L460 PHEV
Last edited by RDR on 10th Dec 2016 2:48 pm. Edited 1 time in total
10th Dec 2016 2:22 pm
Moo D3 Decade
Member Since: 13 Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 14432
neilk wrote:
Not picking on anyone particular here, it just seems to be a theme.
I am not sure I get this "Land Rover has got it wrong", I understand the new one doesn't meet the requirements for a lot of people, but surely it it is more "It isn't right for me". I am on my second, and the D5 will be my third and for me it does everything I want and brings it bang up to date. I compared the Mondeo hire car I had on holiday in terms of infotainment, electronics and driver aids that I use every day it was way ahead. I am not sure LR are cannibalising too many of their own sales, and I am afraid it is just cold commercial sense for them to push this more upmarket as if you are already selling everything you can make, then making more per unit is a pretty obvious strategy.
Who knows if the new Defender plugs the gap, but in the interim I think it makes sense even if you don't agree with it. I know the "Russian Doll" styling approach is not for everyone but to be fair it has worked for Audi, BMW and I agree in the end it becomes impossible to differentiate models and too generic and the risk is high that LR are going too far that way.
I guess it is just an observation that it seems on here "one thing I don't like" translates into LR have screwed up and anyone who doesn't spend 100% of their time driving on dried up river beds towing a 3.5t trailer with two Irish Wolfhounds in the back is not quite a real man and doesn't deserve a Discovery. Great if that is what you do but I don't think me using it as my primary family vehicle makes it any less valuable or desirable for me.
If they are moving it up market and into the X5, Q7 etc space, why give it off road capability it will never need and where does that leave the RRS?D4 HSE EU6 (Known as Jeeves)
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10th Dec 2016 2:38 pm
petersw
Member Since: 17 Nov 2012
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 1135
They are giving it better off road capability than the likes of X5 Q7 to differentiate it & create a niche market.Peter
The distinction that must be drawn is between the most popular car, and the best car for the Discovery to be. Everybody knows that a small hatchback sells in big numbers - does this mean LR should make the Discovery a small hatchback? No, because if everyone did that, nobody would sell loads. In the same vein, nobody denies that expensive "luxury" vehicles are the big money, but that does not mean that a car will sell best by only focussing on that. LR already have other vehicles that meet that criterion - if they can't meet the demand, build another factory, not another car.
Where LR have, IMO, gone wrong, is that they have not cast their net widely enough, because I think they underestimate the size of their net. The D5 will not be poor at what it does, and will no doubt sell well, but could it do more? There is very, very little ambition in it and they seem to have taken the view that they are making a trade-off between their new and existing customers. I think they are plain wrong about that. There is little doubt in my mind that they could have produced a vehicle better suited to my needs, and pick up more buyers than they'd lose, if they had only considered it worth trying. I think they cast away the possibility of a better compromise to readily.
The other thing I would say, is that there is a little bit of projection of the Chesea Tractor brigade's desires onto the "traditionalist" targets. I get the feeling that they think these gimmicks of the towing programs, cubby behind the AC controls, electric plank etc. are something genuinely great. The truth is that they are just the Chelsea brigade's view of what a "traditionalist" wants from a practical vehicle and once the novelty has worn off after a few uses, become part of yesterday's revolution that didn't happen.
So that's the two elements that may be at play to varying degrees where I think LR are wrong - that they A) passed off the possibility of better compromise too easily and B) think they have compromised more than they actually have. Meeting the demands of the biggest group is not the same as meeting the demands of the most people possible. It is important to take the correct counterfactual when passing judgement on things and that something is good or does well is not enough to say it is right - it has to be the best they can do, or near it, to be right. Current: Discovery 3 06MY (55 reg) HSE Auto Zambezi Silver Allisport Fast Road Intercooler, V8 Brakes, Silicone IC Hoses, EGRs Blanked, Remapped, De-Cat pipe, FBHIC
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Previous: FL2 56 reg SE Manual Black (written off )
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10th Dec 2016 3:20 pm
jimbg
Member Since: 19 Apr 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 478
neilk wrote:
Not picking on anyone particular here, it just seems to be a theme.
I am not sure I get this "Land Rover has got it wrong", I understand the new one doesn't meet the requirements for a lot of people, but surely it it is more "It isn't right for me". I am on my second, and the D5 will be my third and for me it does everything I want and brings it bang up to date. I compared the Mondeo hire car I had on holiday in terms of infotainment, electronics and driver aids that I use every day it was way ahead. I am not sure LR are cannibalising too many of their own sales, and I am afraid it is just cold commercial sense for them to push this more upmarket as if you are already selling everything you can make, then making more per unit is a pretty obvious strategy.
Well put.
I guess the D5 is a shock some existing forum members and they seem to believe that they are right and LR are wrong.
They are welcome to express their dislike for the car, but to continually post the same old comments gets rather boring after a while and maybe should accept that the D5 exists!
Now ducks behind the sofa.............
10th Dec 2016 5:26 pm
Red Merle
Member Since: 30 Aug 2014
Location: Liskeard
Posts: 7441
I've got an idea.
What if all of those people that really like the D5 and would like to spend time agreeing with one another, spend a little more time doing so on the relatively underused Disco5 and a little less time on Disco4 pointing out how wrong those who choose not to agree are.
In return, I shall continue to not breath a single word of criticism on Disco5
How about that? 2011 - 2015: 3 x FL2
2015 - 2017: 2 x D4
2017 to date: FFRR SDV8
2023 to date: 2 x FL2 as “second” cars 🙄
2021 to date: Hinckley built ‘14 Triumph Trophy 1200
2022 to date: Hinckley built ‘14 Triumph Trophy 1200 & sidecar!
(One of only two known to exist in the world!)
It's what happens when people are facing a kind of "disobjectivism", with the effect of brushing every issue under the carpet and pretending it's not there. Any criticism is immediately passed of as a mere irrelevance, to the extent that LR could provide a matchbox with Polos attatched and excuses would be found.
As said before, there's nothing wrong with going upmarket, but to suggest that this precludes utility, practicality and covering any of the lower end of the market is nonsense, particularly since, I would argue, the ability to achieve such versatility is LR's comparative advantage and has been for years.Current: Discovery 3 06MY (55 reg) HSE Auto Zambezi Silver Allisport Fast Road Intercooler, V8 Brakes, Silicone IC Hoses, EGRs Blanked, Remapped, De-Cat pipe, FBHIC
Freelander 2 2007 HSE Manual Tambora Flame
Previous: FL2 56 reg SE Manual Black (written off )
Disco 3 06 reg B7S Manual Rimini Red
Disco 2 TD5 Y reg ES Manual Blue - Chipped
Several Discovery 300 TDis
10th Dec 2016 6:49 pm
crews control
Member Since: 18 Mar 2007
Location: Dorset
Posts: 5011
Red Merle wrote:
spend a little more time doing so on the relatively underused Disco5 and a little less time on Disco4
Brilliant idea!
(or if there's nothing there for them http://www.vroomgirls.com/land-rover-instructors/ will probably be discussing it soon) 2005 D3 HSE 2011 D4 Landmark 2016 D4 HSE Lux
2017 Ford Tourneo VR46
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10th Dec 2016 7:12 pm
petersw
Member Since: 17 Nov 2012
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 1135
Ok guys I get the hint.
Sorry.
Won't be troubling you anymore.
Just to point out I do actually own a D4 & this is a D5 topicPeter
Not picking on anyone particular here, it just seems to be a theme..
....no it isn't a theme its that the Disco 4 replacement is a mega important vehicle for LR & important to those who have had & used the previous models (Disco 3 / Disco 4) & want continue with LR Disco ownership
neilk wrote:
am not sure I get this "Land Rover has got it wrong", I understand the new one doesn't meet the requirements for a lot of people, but surely it it is more "It isn't right for me". I am on my second, and the D5 will be my third and for me it does everything I want and brings it bang up to date..
....they have got it wrong BIG STYLE in aiming the vehicle at a different market sector...thier gamble that I dont want to be part of
neilk wrote:
I compared the Mondeo hire car I had on holiday in terms of infotainment, electronics and driver aids that I use every day it was way ahead. .
...comparing the Disco 3 / Disco 4 / & Disco 5 with a Mondeo..yes they all have four wheels & an engine...but the comparison isn't comparable in any way except for maybe the infotainment system
neilk wrote:
am not sure LR are cannibalising too many of their own sales, and I am afraid it is just cold commercial sense for them to push this more upmarket as if you are already selling everything you can make, then making more per unit is a pretty obvious strategy..
if you stand back & really look at the LR range its is all "up" market & not differentiated...that was the whole point of the disco form the first Disco 1 to now..most other makers differentiate their products that why they call it a range
neilk wrote:
knows if the new Defender plugs the gap, but in the interim I think it makes sense even if you don't agree with it. .
....it doesn't make sense to me & a lot of others......but if you like Mondeos you may not see the point
....at all
neilk wrote:
know the "Russian Doll" styling approach is not for everyone but to be fair it has worked for Audi, BMW and I agree in the end it becomes impossible to differentiate models and too generic and the risk is high that LR are going too far that way..
.....its not about style its about function
neilk wrote:
guess it is just an observation that it seems on here "one thing I don't like" translates into LR have screwed up and anyone who doesn't spend 100% of their time driving on dried up river beds towing a 3.5t trailer with two Irish Wolfhounds in the back is not quite a real man and doesn't deserve a Discovery. Great if that is what you do but I don't think me using it as my primary family vehicle makes it any less valuable or desirable for me.
its far more than "one point" to me & many many others...
if you dont use the U part of the SUV credentials of the vehicle you now own getting one that is a compromise won't matter anyway
many people tow & carry large loads & drive on rough ground
....maybe stick with a Mondeo
or
Best of Luck with your Disco 5BREXIT - done properly.
Right now ...We need Government - not Politics
Save the Dipstick Flagbearer-keep it simple, less likely to fail campaign-agenda items:Starting Handles, Acetylene Lamps.
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10th Dec 2016 7:33 pm
J77
Member Since: 03 Mar 2008
Location: Fife
Posts: 6270
It's all getting a bit childish on here 23.5MY Defender 90 X-Dynamic SE D250 MHEV Pangea Green
if you are referring to the post I made after reading another one...you may think that choosing, buying, running & using a vehicle is "childish"...I dont.
I like many others eagerly awaited the Disco 5....many were & still are disappointed..others arent
at some stage I have to consider what to replace my Disco with - hence the discussion
But comparing with a Mondeo ?
Lost for words post above states the situation perfectly.."the trade off between existing & potential customers".
I was called today from the dealers I have used over the last few years asking if I wanted an extended D5 test drive in the new year, I said no for a number off reasons, yes I could afford to buy one (cash).
But the uses I would be putting the vehicle to, what I expect....specifically my needs arent realised by the D5 & this isn't anything about style.
Its an SUV offering replacing the Disco 3/4 hopefully with practical features that meet users needs, mine won't be met by the D5.
If I wanted to go to the D5 site I would......but Im participating in an extended discussion on here about the same vehicle.......if thats OK.
Hope you enjoy the D5 you have on order.BREXIT - done properly.
Right now ...We need Government - not Politics
Save the Dipstick Flagbearer-keep it simple, less likely to fail campaign-agenda items:Starting Handles, Acetylene Lamps.
Founder: Dipsticks-R-Us Inc
D3 HSE-perfectly formed, passenger friendly...has real DIPSTICK
Jag XK-but sadly no DIPSTICK...HUGE design fault
FL2 has DIPSTICK..."real comfort in rear seats"
VW Golf wondermobile (?)..has real DIPSTICK
Morris Minor..original DIPSTICK technology..and a real KEY.
10th Dec 2016 8:49 pm
neilk
Member Since: 27 Aug 2010
Location: Berkshire
Posts: 32
I obviously hit a nerve here, I think I was was reasonably clear with the "In terms of Infotainment, Electronics and driver aids", on the Mondeo as a hire car and yes for that purpose it was fine. My point was that for an expensive car I bought in 2014 despite the fact I love it, it was way behind even the middle of the road at that time in that specific area. Not sure how you make the leap to "He loves Mondeos", and the the further leap to turn it into a kind of insult (albeit one I think I can survive ).
My point on the extreme use case was tongue in cheek, not intended to be taken too literally and definitely not to suggest in any way such a use is irrelevant or somehow inferior.
I will say no more on the matter other than I actually have the utmost respect for anyone who has a passion for this fine car (the D4) and the great variety of things they do with it. I don't in any way think of it is inferior and wrong for their usage to be different to mine, or indeed their opinion to be different. I actually value it and it would be a shame to send people away simply for not 100% agreeing. We do as a society seem to bet getting more and more binary on opinions, and less tolerant of those who differ.
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Allisport Fast Road Intercooler, V8 Brakes, Silicone IC Hoses, EGRs Blanked, Remapped, De-Cat pipe, FBHIC
